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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineDune
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Quantum physics?
    #11474387 - 11/17/09 02:47 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

According to quantum theory...something does not exist until it is observed; but if that is the case then how does say a piece of string appear to be the same length each time it is observed?


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'you cannot tread the path before you become that path yourself' ~ Zen Saying

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Invisiblecortex
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Re: Quantum physics? [Re: Dune]
    #11474423 - 11/17/09 02:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

:confused:


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InvisibleChiefGreenLeaf
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,596
Re: Quantum physics? [Re: Dune]
    #11474561 - 11/17/09 03:13 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

this is always the hard part for people......

you create the string each time because you believe it to be the same length each time.

after the initial viewing, the length is forever locked into place by your mind (unless tampered with obviously by outside force)

we all subconsciously communicate with each other and come to mutual agreements about "where" and "what" is occupying space.

the mode in which we experience reality has been evolving for a few billion years. these inborn "beliefs" are how we can experience a subjective and objective reality. The subjective is creating the objective, but the objective being infinitely wise (god) has engineered the subjects to think they live in an objective world. there is truth in this, but the reality is god loves us so much he gave us the power and opportunity to become like him, create through the quantum field. we will all learn this eventually, just might take a thousand incarnations.

Are you guys getting this? I go back and re read my thoughts and hear pointless babbling. Maybe these words show you to the right path, but unless experienced yourself, you ll have no idea.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Quantum physics? [Re: Dune]
    #11475099 - 11/17/09 04:52 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Dune said:
According to quantum theory...something does not exist until it is observed; but if that is the case then how does say a piece of string appear to be the same length each time it is observed?




Good question, its a tricky one.  Dont think of it as though something doesn't exist when not observed, just think of it as existing in a weird state.  This weird state is a collection of probabilities for each of the possible positions of your particle (or string).  When you observe the particle (or string) one of these possible positions is chosen and that is where you observe it.  So you observe it, you see it somewhere.  Now when you stop observing it, it has a very high probability of being where you originally saw it when you observe it again.  But as time goes on your probability of seeing it where you saw it originally falls off.  So the longer you wait between observations the less likely you are to see it at the same place, the less you wait between observation the more likely you are to see it in at the same place. 

When you look at a string you are performing millions of measurements on it, one for every photon that hits it and bounces into your eye.  So there is very little time in between your measurements and thus it is very unlikely that you will see it anywhere other then where you first observed it.  (What effects how long you have to wait for it to have a high probability of being observed elsewhere?  Its the mass, which is one of the reason such weird quantum effects arnt readily apparent in things we see every day with alot of mass.)

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OfflineHighTek
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Re: Quantum physics? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11483494 - 11/19/09 02:26 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Wait...

Quantum theory applies to a piece of string? Wouldn't the the size of the string no longer follow quantum theory but rather classical Newtonian mechanics?

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Quantum physics? [Re: HighTek]
    #11483509 - 11/19/09 02:35 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


you create the string each time because you believe it to be the same length each time.

after the initial viewing, the length is forever locked into place by your mind (unless tampered with obviously by outside force)

we all subconsciously communicate with each other and come to mutual agreements about "where" and "what" is occupying space.




That's interesting, never heard it explained quite like that before..
My thought is that surely there's more variation between different human beings' perception,
but I suppose the collective consciousness could be held together by agreed upon definitions of reality.
Maybe schizophrenics are only partially held by these definitions? Not to mention other life-forms, such as animals, plants, etc.
I would assume a string would appear drastically different to each one of these forms of life.
(Plant life would sense matter in a totally different manner than humans or animals, for example..)

It seems like the more I learn about quantum physics the more questions and uncertainties appear!

It's fun to think about though, especially when I'm tripping... :grin:


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Quantum physics? [Re: Adamist]
    #11483553 - 11/19/09 02:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

After thinking some more about it, I wonder if it's possible for us to consciously alter our fundamental perception,
or if it's so ingrained in our nature that we cannot perceive beyond the "agreed upon" reality?

Would breaking free of our "normal" perception make it impossible to relate with the world, i.e. insane?
We would just be perceiving things on a different level...

I often wonder if becoming "enlightened" is just a word for evolving our senses to encompass more of reality.
If that's the case then I imagine you could never stop evolving, because we can't possibly perceive it all.

Also, if particles only appear when observed, what would the universe be without conscious observers?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Quantum physics? [Re: HighTek]
    #11484193 - 11/19/09 09:02 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HighTek said:
Wait...

Quantum theory applies to a piece of string? Wouldn't the the size of the string no longer follow quantum theory but rather classical Newtonian mechanics?




Yea, but the many of the effects are so small they are not detectable.  This is because the mass of the string is large.  However, all the rules of chemistry follow from quantum theory so the fact that the atoms of the string are bonded and the like cannot be described classically.

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OfflineDune
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Re: Quantum physics? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11499625 - 11/21/09 03:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks DieCommie man, that's really explained it well :smile:

Does this mean it's possible (though extremely improbable) to observe the string, look away, look back
and it not exist in the same space anymore ?

If so, that's a much better excuse than 'my dog ate my coursework'.


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'you cannot tread the path before you become that path yourself' ~ Zen Saying

Who's mouth is possibly big enough to describe things as they are? ~ Alan Watts

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Quantum physics? [Re: Dune]
    #11500280 - 11/21/09 05:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, it is possible but highly improbable.  All sorts of weird happenings are possible but highly unlikely from a quantum point of view.  I once had a homework assignment where I calculated the probability that if I ran into a door I would 'tunnel' through it and get to the other side without breaking it.  I should dig up that old assignment as see what I got.

Again, these weird effects become more probable as you consider lower and lower masses.  When dealing with particles and the like such effects are common place, in fact they are necessary for things like your computer to work.

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