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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #11982677 - 02/07/10 03:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I agree, but the way I understand it is that the DA will come to us with a deal before we decide to fight the warrant, but that deal would be void if we actually did decide to fight it.  If the warrant doesn't get suppressed, I'll more likely than not take a deal.

Yea, I think you're right about the whole karma thing.  I think the thing that would piss that kid off the most is if I just acted like it didn't phase me at all, and call him up after it's all done and just forgive him.  (Although in his mind, he somehow believes I'm in the wrong.)


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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InvisibleEpilson Lyrae
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #11982692 - 02/07/10 03:38 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Just choose your battles bro.
and "Never mistake movement for action."
-Hemingway.


--------------------
"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." H.T.
I've come to believe that the heart is the filter of the enlightened mind. Epilson Lyrae

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #11982982 - 02/07/10 04:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I agree, but the way I understand it is that the DA will come to us with a deal before we decide to fight the warrant, but that deal would be void if we actually did decide to fight it.




I am not sure that is completely true, the DA would still want to avoid trial even if it was certain you would lose.


I don't doubt that they would offer a better deal before they knew they were going to win however.


In any case, you don't want to take it to trial, you are clearly guilty and I don't think you can argue about the validity of the warrant during trial if your motion to suppress fails.  Unless you are just talking to the jury, which is unlikely to be successful since they found your grow.

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #11983070 - 02/07/10 04:24 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yea, I don't think you can argue about validity of a warrant once it's gone to trial, and I would end up owing my lawyer more.  I don't know if it would be that difficult for my lawyer to disprove some of the charges though, maybe not completely, but enough to get them dropped to misdemeanors, but avoiding doing that in trial is the whole point of a plea bargain.  We'll see how this shit goes I guess.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #11990040 - 02/08/10 06:13 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It would also be nice if I could somehow file for restitution from the kid for all my lawyer fees and whatnot.  Anyone know what the likelihood of something like that succeeding is?  It seems unlikely, but if it won't cost me anything, or very little, it might be worth a shot.




If he's run it will be very cheap and easy.  You just file a small claims court case for the max amount.  When he doesn't show you'll get a judgement by default.  When he doesn't pay in a reasonable time you then file again for a judgement to make him pay.  He won't show and you'll win again.  At that point he will have an "unsatisfied judgement" which will screw his credit and can bind you up from getting a DL in a lot of states.

At the second case you can attempt to attach any property he might have to the debt.  If you win that you'll be able to show up with the sheriffs and seize anything you got attached to the debt.  I know a guy that didn't pay his lawyer. (bad idea)  The sheriffs showed up with a judgement warrant saying they could seize ANYTHING he had.  It specifically listed cars, bikes, TVs, cash, and anything he had in his pockets.  Lucky for him he had on sweatpants with about 30 cents in change on him.  They didn't want his 1980's model TV or the dumpster couch he was sitting on.  I was there and the whole thing was funny, besides having sherries in the apartment when we were all high!


-FF

P.S.  A small claims filing costs $25 in my state.  You'll also spend another $20 on getting him served.  Often you can get the judgement to include at least half of your filing/subpoena costs.  YMMV on that since they like the money up front and don't like getting stuck with a deadbeat debt any more than you do.

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: fastfred]
    #11992605 - 02/08/10 11:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I checked into the small claims thing and the amount I have to pay to file depends on the amount of the claim, but if you win, you can get the entire cost of filing back.  He's back in town now though, so he might show up for something that he could lose personal property over.  I still think I may have a decent case for getting some of it back though, considering I've lost work, been turned down for jobs, and have had to pay thousands of dollars in fees for a lawyer and drug testing bullshit.  It costs me $25 a month to be on this drug testing thing that is a condition of my bond.  If my entire case gets dropped I feel like the court should have to reimburse any fees I've payed for that, since they'll basically be admitting that I shouldn't have been on it in the first place.  I really doubt they would ever pay that back to me though.

Assuming he did show up, what do you think are the chances of me actually getting a judgment in my favor?

As a few people have mentioned though, karma will probably come back to kick this kid in the ass, but it would really be nice to recover at least some of the thousands of dollars this whole ordeal has cost my girlfriend and I.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #11994434 - 02/09/10 10:27 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If he's run it will be very cheap and easy.  You just file a small claims court case for the max amount.  When he doesn't show you'll get a judgement by default.  When he doesn't pay in a reasonable time you then file again for a judgement to make him pay.  He won't show and you'll win again.  At that point he will have an "unsatisfied judgement" which will screw his credit and can bind you up from getting a DL in a lot of states.




In some states, they'll put out a bench warrant on the person if they don't pay and you keep pestering the courts.

I know someone who when the person who they sued didn't pay and got a bench vandalized their car. Person called cops to report vandalism, got arrested when they asked for his 'ID'. Probably not moral, but I would cal it 'just'.

Quote:

Assuming he did show up, what do you think are the chances of me actually getting a judgment in my favor?




Depends on how good you argue and can prove he is the cause of your damages. Civil court is 'preponderance of the evidence' and for small claims is just you and him in front of a magistrate/judge.

Some states don't allow for sueing for 'lost wages' unless it was a job related injury. You may well be able to get him on defamation of character or slander. If he wrote any of this down or signed anything, bust his ass on lible which should stand up more than slander. That's probably the easiest way to back into 'unquantifiable' losses (lost job prospects, loss of future income, etc). While you won't be able to pin anything on grow, stating that you had a gun when you in fact didn't could well hold up.

Talk to your lawyer, ask him if it would be prudent to sue him and ask if you wining that civil case would allow for admissible evidence of the witnesses lack of credibility if he shows and looses. Also ask if him showing and winning would be counterproductive.

If it's something that would be admissible and you think you and your lawyer can peg him with the civil suit, his lack of credibility in the court room along with the cop's failure to prove credibility may help your motion to suppress.

Hell, if you're lawyer says it's a good idea you might be able to go hog wild and sue everyone. In the civil law world, they live by the motto of 'sue everyone and let the facts sort it out'. In short, when there is the plausibility of an actionable claim they sue everyone who could possibly be involved, regardless of how silly it is. During pretrial, discovery and depositions run rampant and defendants get dropped as their isn't sufficient evidence to continue suit with them.

It may be advantageous to sue the PD and the cops, assuming you can find a lawyer nuts enough to take the case. LEO has a tendency of trying to suppress evidence by labeling it as 'training material' or some other such garbage trying to grant the evidence immunity to trial. Once the criminal trial is over, that evidence should be admissible through reference to that trial and can't be suppressed. If they suppress it before the criminal trial it may be able to be suppressed through the immunity they granted it. If they suppress it for the civil and open it up on the criminal, it leaves a gaping hole for an appeal. If you can place a half-million dollar price tag on your conviction, they'll may be much more liable to work with you than if they're just going for a "wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am" conviction. The PD may even go as far as to give the officers some sort of disciplinary action (including temporary suspension) to indemnify themselves from the suit. The cops acting as agents of the PC which is an agent of the state in which is pressing charges against you, the PD just said that it is within the state's best interests to classify the officer's behavior as counterproductive to the intentions of the state all but destroying their credibility in relation to that case.

Talk to your lawyer about this shit, don't take my word for it. Get a second opnion if you don't like his or he is wishy-washy (lawyers tend to be very black/white, if they're not sure they're apt to just say no). If he says no, ask for an explination. Ask him if he's saying no because it's a knee jerk reaction or if it's well thought out. I'm not telling you to convince him, but rather to ensure that he has convinced himself.

Keep in mind that he has 2 objectives. Keep you from going to jail and wrack up billable hours. If he thinks it will get you off and take him more billable hours to do so, bet your sweet cheeks he'll be gung-ho. Sure, it may cost you a few more grand now, but you could possibly loose millions of dollars of future income if this doesn't get whisked under the carpet.

Oh, and if you do sue the cops, move out of the state when it's over.


--------------------
semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit


Sclerotia FAQ... If ya ain't got any stones, grow some.

Will work for Laetiporus sulphureus culture/spores (or any other Laetiporus actually), :pm: me.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Busted [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11994621 - 02/09/10 11:08 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Good points FC.

A small claims suit might be a good way to get testimony for your trial.  I wouldn't go after the cops, certainly not right off the bat.  They'll just say that they believed the guy and there's no real way you can disprove that.

But if you get the guy to breakdown on the stand or not show or testify in a way that shows his unreliability it might really help your case.

I think your chances of winning are pretty damn good.  He might also say a lot of things that help your case since he'll be trying to beat a completely different civil case rather than being the DA's lap dog during your motion.  You'll also be going well into the whole lying to the cops issue.

Anyway, I can't see how it would hurt and the filing fee is a damn minimal risk compared to anything else you can do legally.


-FF

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: fastfred]
    #11995565 - 02/09/10 01:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Good points FC.

A small claims suit might be a good way to get testimony for your trial.  I wouldn't go after the cops, certainly not right off the bat.  They'll just say that they believed the guy and there's no real way you can disprove that.

But if you get the guy to breakdown on the stand or not show or testify in a way that shows his unreliability it might really help your case.


-FF




If I were to go against the police, my argument would be that they did not follow proper protocol when obtaining the warrant.  They aren't supposed to just believe the witness.  Part of getting a warrant is establishing the witnesses credibility, even if they are known to be credible, which is also going to be a huge part of my case now. 

As for the kid, he already didn't show up to the pretrial hearing for which he was subpoenaed, but for some reason they didn't issue a warrant for him.  I think he called the DA and just told him he wasn't going to testify, so they just let him off the hook, but I think him doing that already shows that he isn't credible.

I'll most likely go after the kid once this is all over, if not before, but I'll have to ask my lawyer about going after the PD.  I have a feeling going after them is less likely to succeed, but I would hope it would send the message that I'm not going to lie down and take their bullshit.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #12016333 - 02/12/10 02:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

So I talked to my lawyer about the whole small claims thing.  What he told me was that if the police hadn't found anything at all in my house, I would be a lot more likely to be awarded damages, but the judge is much less likely to be sympathetic to someone who may be selling drugs.  However, he did make it clear that he wasn't saying it wasn't worth trying.  I think the most likely scenario would be that the kid wouldn't even show up for court, in which case I'd get an automatic judgment in my favor.  Even if he did show up, this kid usually can't make a decent argument for anything anyway.  He'll probably just yell and make a fool of himself, in which case the judge would probably side with me.  As for going after the police though, it sounds like that probably isn't very likely to get me anywhere.  He also said that neither of these cases would have any bearing on each other; like if I take him to small claims, it's not going to affect the criminal case, and the criminal case is not going to affect the small claims case.  Even if the evidence is suppressed in the criminal case, it can still be brought up during small claims.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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OfflineKillaFoRilla
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Re: Busted [Re: Adden]
    #12034250 - 02/15/10 02:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Dystopia said:
Quote:

McDude said:
Quote:

jupiterskimmer said:
call ur lawyer ur fine. the warrant was a for a 9 mil pistol that they didnt find. they had no right to take ur grow.




I was thinking this as well. A friend once had his house raided for bullshit his dad was doing on the computer. They were there to seize the computer but also found a bong and a bunch of pot. They had to leave that stuff there because it wasn't what they had a warrant for.




I'm pretty sure someone's going to eventually say this, but I'm 99% certain if they have a warrant and find something illegal it is within their authoritative means to take it & charge for it.




I have retired law enforcement in my family and can tell you this:

If the cops get a warrant for stolen TV's and they find an illegal grow op, but no TV's, congrats you still gonna end up in the clink.

Lawyer. Now.


--------------------

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: KillaFoRilla]
    #12034401 - 02/15/10 02:35 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KillaFoRilla said:


Lawyer. Now.




Way ahead of you.  I think it's true that they can't seize anything they don't have a warrant for, but in probably 99% of cases, they'll just get another warrant for anything else they find that happens to be illegal.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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OfflineKillaFoRilla
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #12034659 - 02/15/10 03:15 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

My bad man, I just finished the whole thread. :eek:

Shit like this has happened before and will again unfortunately. ALL WE CAN DO IS KNOW OUR RIGHTS. It sounds like you are now well aware of the rights you gave up on that terrible day. Everyone can learn from your story.

I hope your doing well man. It just sucks that anything going through the system takes for fucking ever. I know its been a bummer, but things will work out eventually. For now, count your blessings and enjoy simple things of beauty like a sunny day!

:sunny:
Quote:

illuminati said:
Quote:

KillaFoRilla said:


Lawyer. Now.




Way ahead of you.  I think it's true that they can't seize anything they don't have a warrant for, but in probably 99% of cases, they'll just get another warrant for anything else they find that happens to be illegal.




Exactly, they will get another warrant or "find a way". Just cause its not on a warrant does't mean they're just gonna walk away. "Oh yeah, nothin 'ere folks, mooove along". They're just as shady as the worst drug dealer you know, but you sound well aware of this shit.


--------------------

Edited by KillaFoRilla (02/15/10 03:18 PM)

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Offlineroaddog
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Re: Busted [Re: KillaFoRilla]
    #12034820 - 02/15/10 03:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

wow bro, i feel for you, to be perfectly honest. i would start another big op somewhere else, and use the cash to get you out of this mess. No one would ever think you would do that. Plus its mushys that got you in this mess, it will be mushys that get you out. They can take anything they want, but they cant take the knowledge out of your head. I know this strategy is kind of ballsy. But I'm in it for the long hall, this simply is what i would probably do.You need a thousand dollar loan, and you are off and running.I would rent an old trailer, in some one Else's name, you may have to pull in a partner, but after 2 months, you got your lawyer, and your fine money paid. just an idea.

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: KillaFoRilla]
    #12034905 - 02/15/10 03:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KillaFoRilla said:
My bad man, I just finished the whole thread. :eek:

Shit like this has happened before and will again unfortunately. ALL WE CAN DO IS KNOW OUR RIGHTS. It sounds like you are now well aware of the rights you gave up on that terrible day. Everyone can learn from your story






I definitely appreciate the support, but what rights did I give up?  The first thing I said to the cops was, "I'm not talking to you without a lawyer."  I feel like I lost rights for sure, but there wasn't a whole lot I could have done about that.  As for starting another op, I really don't think I'm gonna do that.  Too much risk.  I'm just going to have to hustle my computer services.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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Offlineroaddog
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #12034957 - 02/15/10 04:00 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

good luck brother, good luck!!

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OfflineKillaFoRilla
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #12034959 - 02/15/10 04:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Don't start another op, thats silly...errr, at least not for a while! But you didn't have to open the safe or give'em combo's. But, you got fucked and theres not much it would have done I suppose. I still would invoke any and all rights in my favor.

I chose to edit rather than post again: But, dude, what I said was really kind of here-say. You did your research about the situation. From watching friends/family go through the system, I can say you did great. You went out and got a great attorney.

Anywho, I hope things are well man.  :sunny:

Edited by KillaFoRilla (02/15/10 05:10 PM)

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: KillaFoRilla]
    #12035117 - 02/15/10 04:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yea, you're right, I forgot about that.  I guess it was either that, or have them take my safe and break it open.  I guess if it comes down to it though, it's very easy to prove they questioned me for that information after I had invoked my right to an attorney.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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InvisiblesporeRider
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Re: Busted [Re: illuminati]
    #12035587 - 02/15/10 05:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

- yeah - good luck bro!! - keep trying to clog up the system n they'll start giving deals!

- n yeah - when you said you wanted and attorney present ( just saying it aint enuf ) you should have called one instantly n COMPLETELY stop your conversations with the pigs - if its bad enuf they will go get a warrant possibly anyways - but if you don't stand your ground - or just totally shut up - - -  they got you - -- they test you to see what you know - and mosta the time they know how to get what they want - they went to school for it - so watch out - - - -  - nexttime - don't even answer the door for pigs - let them get their warrant n bust on in - then your case of illegal search n seizure may go your way - - -or they see you mean business and choose not to start a huge long seemingly endless court battle - -  it would suck for a cop to have to memorize the night of busting you n be tested on it for a year plus some!!

Good luck buddy
For good legal advice try n give donna kuchler( @ Kuchler law offices ) a call in waukesha
just to get any free advice she can give ya if she will- tell her a old friend told ya to call her with just a few  questions - Wishing you luck man - :thumbup:


--------------------
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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Busted [Re: sporeRider]
    #12035689 - 02/15/10 06:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm hoping I won't have to take a deal; my lawyer told me straight up that it was an illegal warrant, no question about it.  Now all we need to do is prove that and I'm completely off the hook.  I don't answer the door for the cops, but I wasn't home when this happened; they called me on a restricted number (which I always answer because my cell number is my business number and it could have been a potential customer) and said if I didn't come back to my house, they were putting a warrant out for my arrest.  I'm not sure if they could have actually put a warrant out for my arrest, but I wasn't going to take that chance.  Yea, I really should have called a lawyer right away, but I didn't have the number for one readily available, and as soon as I told them I wasn't talking to them without an attorney present, I was cuffed and put into the back of the squad car.  Thanks for the advice on the attorney though, I'll keep her in mind.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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