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OfflineFeedingMyDreams
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Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years...
    #11471535 - 11/17/09 01:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Everyone loves to go with Hitler but however it was really Stalin.

Read the book Journey into the Whirlwind.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11471613 - 11/17/09 01:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The body count under Stalin was about the same (if not greater) than Hitler's.

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Offlinethemostpurple
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #11471622 - 11/17/09 01:31 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I figured most people that got past U.S history in high school understood that :lol:


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InvisibleGrizvok
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #11471634 - 11/17/09 01:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
The body count under Stalin was about the same (if not greater) than Hitler's.




I thought Stalin had Hitler beaten by a decent margin?

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Offlinedoom876
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11471637 - 11/17/09 01:39 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FeedingMyDreams said:
Everyone loves to go with Hitler but however it was really Stalin.

Read the book Journey into the Whirlwind.




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Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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Offlinethemostpurple
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Grizvok]
    #11471674 - 11/17/09 01:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Grizvok said:
Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
The body count under Stalin was about the same (if not greater) than Hitler's.




I thought Stalin had Hitler beaten by a decent margin?



a lot more, stalin was upwards of 12 million i believe, and all of his own people....


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InvisibleAlmostAsCoolAs
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: themostpurple]
    #11471695 - 11/17/09 02:01 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

He definitely killed more but there's no way of knowing just how many more he actually killed.


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OfflineThe_Ghost
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: AlmostAsCoolAs]
    #11471701 - 11/17/09 02:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

AlmostAsCoolAs said:
He definitely killed more but there's no way of knowing just how many more he actually killed.



If only they had Twitter back then. :sad:


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InvisibleAlmostAsCoolAs
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: The_Ghost]
    #11471706 - 11/17/09 02:04 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:rofl2:


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11471817 - 11/17/09 02:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Mao.

Hard to get a real estimate of how many he killed but figures go in the range of 50 -70 million. Lots of people don't know about it even in china.

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OfflineFeedingMyDreams
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: DimensionX]
    #11471847 - 11/17/09 03:09 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Mao.

Hard to get a real estimate of how many he killed but figures go in the range of 50 -70 million. Lots of people don't know about it even in china.



Yeah, the Mao Zedong's communist revolution probably killed more people.

Still, China already had like a billion people already.  So it wasn't hard to knock off a few million.


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OfflineFeedingMyDreams
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11471862 - 11/17/09 03:12 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FeedingMyDreams said:
Everyone loves to go with Hitler but however it was really Stalin.

Read the book Journey into the Whirlwind.



The current common American knows Hitler for killing the Jews and us beating him in WW2.

The current common American knows Stalin as just a guy who ran "Russia" for a while after WW2.


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Offlinesimc
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: DimensionX]
    #11471866 - 11/17/09 03:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hard to get a real estimate of how many he killed but figures go in the range of 50 -70 million. Lots of people don't know about it even in china.




In defense of Mao around 30 million of his deaths were due to incompetence, whereas all of Stalin's (even the famine) were due to malice.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11472192 - 11/17/09 06:05 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Anything that ends with -ism shouldnt be taken too seriously, except Shroomism :awesome:


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OfflineSillyString525
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11472200 - 11/17/09 06:08 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Rosie O'Donnell.


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OfflineBuben
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: SillyString525]
    #11472420 - 11/17/09 07:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

In defense of Mao around 30 million of his deaths were due to incompetence, whereas all of Stalin's (even the famine) were due to malice.




Please elaborate, interesting claim, sounds like someone is pulling things out of the ass.

Then all of you have faulty logic Hitler was responsible for WW2 in which:
Quote:

World War II casualty statistics vary greatly. Estimates of total dead range from 50 million to over 70 million.[36] The sources cited on this page document an estimated death toll in World War II of 62 to 78 million, making it the deadliest war ever.




Adding all the people Hitler killed due to race and other reasons make him by far worst dictator ever.

Hitler only ruled for 12 years, Stalin for 31, which necessarily must be considered when counting total death toll, ffs would Hitler have been in power for 31 years there would be no one alive but "Arian" race.

I don't defend Staling, he was a fucktard, but use your god damn brains.

EDIT:

Trying to claim that Communism==Nazism is a deliberate political strategy since it brings many benefits to the west, and it has been propagated with increasing intensity last couple of years.

Since Russia inherited from Soviet Union Russia would need to pay compensation to republics of Soviet Union for their suffering. Thats why Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia lobby very hard and try to claim that Communism = Nazism.

Russia would also loose benefits such as veto vote in FN.

China would be pressured since they will be living in a regime that has been recognized to be against humanity (derived from Nazism).

There would be green light to attack North korea, since one can not have a regime that is against humanity to also even consider to have any kinds of weapon.

Any other countries that had communist past or lightly might resemble something communistic will be fucked with big time.

This is why Communism=Nazism agenda is so popular today, world is running out of countries to fuck with and we need to create new ones.


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Edited by Buben (11/17/09 08:11 AM)

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11472479 - 11/17/09 08:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Adding all the people Hitler killed due to race and other reasons make him by far worst dictator ever.




and stalin killed based on class - hmmmmmmmm which is worse?


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InvisibleBig L
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11472487 - 11/17/09 08:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Also, you are using speculation. Hitler would have....

Using pure numbers killed and tortured, Hitler was not the worst.


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11472501 - 11/17/09 08:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
Quote:

Adding all the people Hitler killed due to race and other reasons make him by far worst dictator ever.




and stalin killed based on class - hmmmmmmmm which is worse?





lol yeah, stalin didn't even care if they were the same race.

And no one said communism == nazism, it was simply stated that both forms of government and their political leaders have killed millions.


I wonder how many capitalism has killed.  It's got to be a high number, we just DO NOT hear about it.  :3  Money = greed.  Greed leads to murder.

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OfflineBuben
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11472505 - 11/17/09 08:22 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Also, you are using speculation. Hitler would have....

Using pure numbers killed and tortured, Hitler was not the worst.




Adding WW2 to his record makes him worse even if one doesn't consider something so obvious as number of years ruling.


Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
Quote:

Adding all the people Hitler killed due to race and other reasons make him by far worst dictator ever.




and stalin killed based on class - hmmmmmmmm which is worse?




Staling killed based on "threat to the country" based on opposition to communism(Majority property owners and intellectuals) and other "threats" such as religion, and of course regular criminals.

Class is the result, not a goal. Hence you could survive if you submitted to the fucked up regime.

Since for example Jews during Hitler had no chance to survive no matter how much they submitted, it is far worse.

Though in general killing is killing, no matter reasons.

But ffs, are your reasoning so limited that you have to categorize the whole complexity of history and life into "gooood" and "baaaad"-> must kill all "baaad", must submit to "good" tv said me is "good", kill "baaaad" e.t.c.


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Drugs are paradoxical, you think you can solve all the worlds problems with philosophy, but if you drop a coin you will never fucking find it.


Edited by Buben (11/17/09 08:25 AM)

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11472521 - 11/17/09 08:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

stalin killed off the leading scientists, artists, peasents etc because their class was a danger to an utopic way of life. stalin also promoted killing jews and was paranoid of a worldwide jewish conspiracy. sounds "bad".


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OfflineBuben
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11472542 - 11/17/09 08:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
stalin killed off the leading scientists, artists, peasents etc because their class was a danger to an utopic way of life. stalin also promoted killing jews and was paranoid of a worldwide jewish conspiracy. sounds "bad".




Well all I did classify them as intellectuals, hence we agree on that part.

Better life for peasants was the whole motivation for revolution, hence reason to kill them is the same as for everybody else, if they somehow looked threatening for the state.

Keep in mind communism came with civil war in Russia, war = killing opposition, even though the war was over when Staling got the power, killing any opposition was still burning hot.

Yes Jews were a part of the repression, though there is no evidence that Stalin tried to exterminate all Jews as was Hitler's plan, reasons given for Stains repressions of Jews is believed to be due to the overwhelming majority of Jews in the Bolshevik party and fear of Jewish separatism. Lenin was a Jew, so was Trotsky and it is known that Stalin strongly disagreed with their approach.


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Drugs are paradoxical, you think you can solve all the worlds problems with philosophy, but if you drop a coin you will never fucking find it.


Edited by Buben (11/17/09 08:37 AM)

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OfflineRocker232
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11472555 - 11/17/09 08:37 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Most of Mao's death were due to stupidity. The plan was "to make China self sufficient". People were lazy though as there was no real incentive (as is the problem with communism) and the plan backfired leaving millions to starve to death. This was when they were reforming China.


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InvisibleBig L
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11472593 - 11/17/09 08:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Buben said:


Adding WW2 to his record makes him worse even if one doesn't consider something so obvious as number of years ruling.







I don't really count all of those deaths, though. You are saying that the deaths in the pacific are Hitler's fault. The nuking of Japan was Hitlers fault?

Counting every death from WWII is just ridiculous.


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OfflineBuben
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Big L]
    #11472612 - 11/17/09 08:54 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Big L said:
Quote:

Buben said:


Adding WW2 to his record makes him worse even if one doesn't consider something so obvious as number of years ruling.







I don't really count all of those deaths, though. You are saying that the deaths in the pacific are Hitler's fault. The nuking of Japan was Hitlers fault?

Counting every death from WWII is just ridiculous.




Oh and comparing deaths over 31 year period with deaths over 12 year period and ignoring WW2 completely is not the same thing?


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InvisibleBig L
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11472618 - 11/17/09 08:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

When did I say I am ignoring them. You have a clear bias and way too much emotionally invested in this debate.
I'm over it.


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11472697 - 11/17/09 09:21 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Ythan, hands down.


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OfflineBuben
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Big L]
    #11472711 - 11/17/09 09:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Big L said:
When did I say I am ignoring them. You have a clear bias and way too much emotionally invested in this debate.
I'm over it.





Researchers before the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union attempting to count the number of people killed under Stalin's regime produced estimates ranging from 3 to 60 million.[70]
...
Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[83] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct.[84][85]

Hence we can say 20 to 60 millions for Stalin.

11 to 14 millions in holocaust + 50 to 70 millions for WW2 = (61 to 74)-Arbitrary number of death not caused by Hitlers WW2.

Hence the case is not so clear cut and there exists no such certainty people are expressing about the issue, when taking killing rate over time into account only blind can continue to argue that Hitler does not  leads the "most fucked up dictator" league. And I get emotions when I see things like this, people reiterating populist agenda without critical inquiry.


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Drugs are paradoxical, you think you can solve all the worlds problems with philosophy, but if you drop a coin you will never fucking find it.


Edited by Buben (11/17/09 09:27 AM)

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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11472727 - 11/17/09 09:29 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

How can you blame Hitler for all the deaths of WW2?  Also, this is probably one of the stupidest arguements I've seen this month.  Why don't you fags argue about who is more Awesome Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal while your at it.  Bring this lame shit back to the right forum.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Rocker232]
    #11472744 - 11/17/09 09:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

When we think of dictatorships, we immediately jump to names like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Milosevic etc, largely communist dictatorships.

What about capitalist dictatorships?

Could the centralism of George Bush's government be deemed dictatorial in that respect?

Could the centralism of Kevin Rudd's government be deemed dictatorial in that respect?

They may not be as quick to quell as Hitler or Melosevic were, but they are sending us to similar, if not worse shit in the long term.

But that's just my opinion :shrug: sorry if it seems like I'm hijacking the thread.

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: fapjack]
    #11472746 - 11/17/09 09:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

My vote goes for Idi Amin Dada Oumee. dude was bat shit insane. He ate people. Had 4 wives and couldnt even read



Stalin didnt kill threats to his country he killed threats to his power. Stalin exiled and killed all of his political rivals. It had nothing to do with the tenets of true communism.

Stalism (or Maoism )  involves a state making extensive use of propaganda to establish a personality cult. pretty much is "red fascism" .  Keep in mind most of his political rivals thought after he took power Russia ceased being communist. It was more of a theocracy with a new ruling class.

You want to talk about communism talk about Lenin or Trotsky. Most communist beleave that after the death of Lenin and the invasion of Finland by Stalin that ussr became a degenrative worker state.

Oh and  im not talking just about the dragoons either im talking about people who were in the communist party who spoke against Stalins rule.

Keep in mind the Russian revolution was long over. (would have been over even sooner if it wasnt for allied intervention during ww 1)


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Edited by trekie (11/17/09 09:38 AM)

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OfflineBuben
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: trekie]
    #11472795 - 11/17/09 09:53 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trekie said:
My vote goes for Idi Amin Dada Oumee. dude was bat shit insane. He ate people. Had 4 wives and couldnt even read



Stalin didnt kill threats to his country he killed threats to his power. Stalin exiled and killed all of his political rivals. It had nothing to do with the tenets of true communism.

Stalism (or Maoism )  involves a state making extensive use of propaganda to establish a personality cult. pretty much is "red fascism" .  Keep in mind most of his political rivals thought after he took power Russia ceased being communist. It was more of a theocracy with a new ruling class.

You want to talk about communism talk about Lenin or Trotsky. Most communist beleave that after the death of Lenin and the invasion of Finland by Stalin that ussr became a degenrative worker state.

Oh and  im not talking just about the dragoons either im talking about people who were in the communist party who spoke against Stalins rule.

Keep in mind the Russian revolution was long over. (would have been over even sooner if it wasnt for allied intervention during ww 1)




Well I don't know, Lenin and Trotsky killed there share of people as well, and propaganda was Lenins idea, he said movies are the most powerful propaganda machine. Hence in my eyes it looks the USSR would be fucked up no matter what, only thing that might have been better was that Lenin had bit more liberal view of economy (since first attempt to implement plan economy did't went too well) hence more China like model might have been implemented if Lenin would have lived longer.

Anyway my opinion is that it would probably be better if there was no USSR, though on the other hand they were responsible for large scale industrialization of the USSR countries, hence WW2 would probably have different outcome without communism.

Well if there was no ww1 or if Russia did't participate in it there would probably be no revolution, since scares resources and expensive ww1 fed communist uprising in Russia.


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Offlinekaste
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: DimensionX]
    #11472796 - 11/17/09 09:54 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Mao.

Hard to get a real estimate of how many he killed but figures go in the range of 50 -70 million. Lots of people don't know about it even in china.



You beat me to it buddy.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: trekie]
    #11472803 - 11/17/09 09:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

looks like most people think that the lowest point in human dictatorships occurred between 1870-1976

and not that I'm arguing I can't help but wonder if some of the past rulers wouldn't have done more if they had the same resources at their disposal.

Napoleon, Caesar, Vlad, Alexander, Genghis Khan


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: trekie]
    #11472823 - 11/17/09 10:01 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My vote goes for Idi Amin Dada Oumee.




OK :smile:


Quote:

dude was bat shit insane.





Nope he was a sociopath like the others. Unsane but not insane.


Quote:

He ate people.





He didnt. You confuse him with Jean Bedel Bokassa.


Quote:

Had 4 wives





Would you honestly hold that against him?  :awesome:


Quote:

couldnt even read





Thats a matter of education, not sanity.




Idi Amin was really, really bad, but his death toll is in the hundreds of thousands, not tens of millions.

You can certainly blame most of the deaths in the European war on Hitler, because without him Mussolini would have been wiped off the map in a few months. Without Hitler there would have been no WW2 in the European theatre to speak of.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Asante]
    #11472843 - 11/17/09 10:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

This centuries baddest guy could be Ugo Chavez. Not like body count or anything but he's pretty bad.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Asante]
    #11472847 - 11/17/09 10:07 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Without Hitler there would have been no WW2 in the European theatre to speak of.




hitler learned all about concentration camps and mass eradication of people from chekists and stalin. stalin planned to attack europe himself with germany as an ally but hitler beat him to the punch. hitler = fall guy.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11472940 - 11/17/09 10:33 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Lenin also had more liberal views on personal freedom. Also who did Trotsky kill? I thought we was against the  start of the revolution he wanted to wait.

Interesting fact Lenin was the first person to legalize gay marriage.

Yes Lenin do use movies as propaganda but none of them were finished until his death. (maybe the battleship polyatomic)  Lenin also fed his people better then the czar did. He also rebuilt russia and brought it into the industrial era. Consider that between ww 1 the Russian revaluation and the famine

ww 1  31 million
Russian revolution around 12 million
and famines  from 1891- 1892 also in 1920's ( most of the  farmland at this time was held by dragoons i forget his name and all my books are packed)


Also the allies would have never won ww 2 without Russian intervention. Stalin formed a pact with Hitler because during ww 1 the allies and Japan  invaded Russia and gave nearly all the arms to the white forces.

I think communism is a good thing. We need an altertive to capitlism


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: trekie]
    #11472962 - 11/17/09 10:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

soviet russia just had a lot of people to be thrown into the mince meat machine. the allies supplied them with everything from trucks to grain. soviet economy did not work, it was a disaster and their attempted communism brought only repressions and famine.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11472963 - 11/17/09 10:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Mao had the biggest body count.

But I think I might want to go with Pol Pot.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11472976 - 11/17/09 10:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No one acknowledged my previous post re: capitalist dictatorship.
But oh well, I suppose I'll take that hit, being 19 thus having my ignorance augmented by my lack of worldly experience, and all..

Anyway, if you want to read on, my point is that with Kevin Rudd facing hardly any obstacles in his mission to secure deals with China regarding Australia's exportation of 100% of our natural gas and mineral resources, it positions one to question just what will become of Australia when those resources inevitably run out.

In my opinion, Australia will be put in a position of sovereign risk; we will plead to India and China to sell us our resources back, to which they will agree, but at 10/20/50/100x the price they bought them off us for.

Then will come the inevitable time where we run out of money. We will no longer be able to buy these resources off China or India because, to put it simply, we will be bankrupt.

Then a population of 40(?)million will be stranded on an island completely siphoned of resources.

Only at the aforementioned time will the repercussions of Kevin Rudd's capitalist dictatorship be felt. In my opinion of course.

As a result, I don't know about the past 100 years, but Kevin Rudd could very well make the top of the future list, only maybe it will take humanity a few centuries to realize it.

Our amoral consumerism will ultimately consume us.

And you can quote me on that. I don't know how people would feel about quoting a 19 year old, but whatever, that's just what I think.

This is all just my opinion of course, ignore me if you will..

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: seeker28]
    #11473004 - 11/17/09 10:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

seeker28 said:
Could the centralism of George Bush's government be deemed dictatorial in that respect?



No.  Authoritarian, sure.  But not dictatorial.

Quote:

Could the centralism of Kevin Rudd's government be deemed dictatorial in that respect?



No.

Quote:

They may not be as quick to quell as Hitler or Melosevic were, but they are sending us to similar, if not worse shit in the long term.



Even if this is true, creating negative long-term consequences does not a dictator make.

The main example of a capitalist dictator that comes to mind is Pinochet.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11473008 - 11/17/09 10:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
soviet russia just had a lot of people to be thrown into the mince meat machine. the allies supplied them with everything from trucks to grain. soviet economy did not work, it was a disaster and their attempted communism brought only repressions and famine.




I would hate to disagree but the allies pre ww 2 did everything in there power to ruin Russia. Yes we did supply them with trains grain and guns. That was by and large the Russian white forces. Keep in mind that the allies  wanted that second front open against German and would do anything with in there power to get it. 
Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War

Also during ww 2  we didnt start supply the soviets till much later in the war.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11473015 - 11/17/09 10:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hitler learned all about concentration camps and mass eradication of people from chekists and stalin.




Questionable claim, sounds like pure speculation. How hard is it to invent a concentration camp?

Quote:

stalin planned to attack europe himself with germany as an ally but hitler beat him to the punch.




Do you mean Stalin planned to attack europe with Germany prior to Hitlers rule, or are you referring to the Molotov–Ribbentrop pact?


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11473036 - 11/17/09 10:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Buben said:
Quote:

hitler learned all about concentration camps and mass eradication of people from chekists and stalin.




Questionable claim, sounds like pure speculation. How hard is it to invent a concentration camp?

Quote:

stalin planned to attack europe himself with germany as an ally but hitler beat him to the punch.




Do you mean Stalin planned to attack europe with Germany prior to Hitlers rule, or are you referring to the Molotov�Ribbentrop pact?




look it up yourself.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: trekie]
    #11473040 - 11/17/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

As far as worst capitalist men in power im going to say.

Andrew Jackson or Woodrow Wilson.


Stalin did try to invade  Finland and Manchuria (that was seized during allied intervention  in 1922).


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: trekie]
    #11473066 - 11/17/09 10:53 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: trekie]
    #11473111 - 11/17/09 11:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trekie said:
Lenin also had more liberal views on personal freedom. Also who did Trotsky kill? I thought we was against the  start of the revolution he wanted to wait.

Interesting fact Lenin was the first person to legalize gay marriage.

Yes Lenin do use movies as propaganda but none of them were finished until his death. (maybe the battleship polyatomic)  Lenin also fed his people better then the czar did. He also rebuilt russia and brought it into the industrial era. Consider that between ww 1 the Russian revaluation and the famine

ww 1  31 million
Russian revolution around 12 million
and famines  from 1891- 1892 also in 1920's ( most of the  farmland at this time was held by dragoons i forget his name and all my books are packed)


Also the allies would have never won ww 2 without Russian intervention. Stalin formed a pact with Hitler because during ww 1 the allies and Japan  invaded Russia and gave nearly all the arms to the white forces.

I think communism is a good thing. We need an altertive to capitlism




Trotsky was head of read army, hence wherever the army was used to repress opposition, Trotsky was personally responsible.

Lenin claimed that revolutions was not possible, and wanted to wait, Trotsky is the one to thank for revolution, though Lenin managed to assume power, hence also got credit for revolution itself.

West have been feeding both sides (i would claim: as usual), Lenin and Trotsky both got money from the west for the revolution, Lenin received money among other places from Germany, Trotsky was caught in England due to Tzars wanted order, but "fled", got new passport and money in US and got back to Russia to continue working on communist revolution.

Hence as always everything is much more complicated then it seems.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11473117 - 11/17/09 11:01 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The Soviets would just send waves of people over and over until something worked.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: gzuf]
    #11473171 - 11/17/09 11:10 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I did know about the money that was recived. but i think the invasion of russia and the 300,000 rifles we sent to the white forces made up for the small amount of money we sent the russian govement.

Now if i recall right I could be wrong  but wasnt most of that money sent when there  provisnal goverment that was pretty much set up to tow the line of the allies?  (I.E. keeping the second front open)

i'm talking of feb 1917 or before  I would look it up but  all my books are packed away.

If i recall right far worst atrocious were committed by the white forces then the red forces in this time period. One of the reason that  the red won was due to fact of allied intervention.  ( and great propaganda) . Didnt help that the  de facto leader of the white forces was just as bad as Stalin would be


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... *DELETED* [Re: gzuf]
    #11473189 - 11/17/09 11:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Ferris

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Ferris]
    #11473203 - 11/17/09 11:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)


Quote:

Ferris said:
Pol Pot led his country for less than four years and killed something like a quarter of the population - 2 million people, most of them urban professionals and intellectuals who had been forced to farm.



wasn't he the guy that ordered the killing of every person with glasses because glasses were the sign of elitists?


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11473224 - 11/17/09 11:21 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You make some good points.

However, in an attempted rebuttal of them; some could argue that George Bush's unilateralist invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan and ensuing expenditure of billions of dollars in that area to little/no avail, has made the US more vulnerable to China's inevitable economic PWNGE.

As for Pinochet, he was yet another historical figure whose hunger for power overrode their moral obligations as a leader. Nothing new. Nothing really different.

Kevin Rudd is hungryasfuck for power, just like all these historical dictators, and his committees are bending over for him.

With all due respect; even if you speak like Yoda, who are you to judge what constitutes a dictator?

The "negative long-term consequences" that may be effectuated by him could very well bring about the literal destruction of a country. Something which, in my opinion, the majority would not endorse.
Moreover, as we can see, the voice of the majority is being ignored regarding climate change action. Clearly the majority of Australians want KRUDD to grow some balls and take action, but he is quite comfortable in not doing so. As such, he is breaching the fundamental principle of democracy - that the people have the power.

As a result, the Australian government is becoming increasingly centralist, authoritarian, and some would argue, dictatorial.

In my humble opinion.

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: seeker28]
    #11473265 - 11/17/09 11:30 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sure many ad hominems will follow form this quote, but I don't care, it has to be said.

Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns-or dollars. Take your choice-there is no other-and your time is running out.-- Ayn Rand

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: trekie]
    #11473267 - 11/17/09 11:31 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Well I don't know the exact amount sent, who received how much and when, but it is known that both sides were funded, which probably just added fuel to the fire.

As far as I know white forces were no worse then red, but just have been portrayed as savages by communist propaganda, it was civil war, whatever is worse for the opposite site is better for your side.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... *DELETED* [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11473306 - 11/17/09 11:43 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Ferris]
    #11473314 - 11/17/09 11:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
Quote:

b0red5tiff said:

Quote:

Ferris said:
Pol Pot led his country for less than four years and killed something like a quarter of the population - 2 million people, most of them urban professionals and intellectuals who had been forced to farm.



wasn't he the guy that ordered the killing of every person with glasses because glasses were the sign of elitists?




Yep, that's the guy.  We supported his regime by the way.



haha not me, i'm from an ex-ussr country


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11473323 - 11/17/09 11:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hence... you speaka the Engrish?

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11473328 - 11/17/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
haha not me, i'm from an ex-ussr country




Must be Ukraine.  All that radiation has addled you brain ;-)


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11473342 - 11/17/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

So you're saying what I suggested was an ad hominem? I was not attacking Kevin Rudd's character at all, I was merely attempting to shed some light on the fallacies of his decisions.

OK, you may have a point in your quote. But then again, be a quote as it may, it is still but another human being's opinion, and therefore can't be taken as "gospel", regardless of that human being's stature.

I'd like to believe that human beings are inherently, innately good, but something tells me that doing so would be naïve.

Is it really impossible to live in a society which operates in accordance with love and truth rather than one which runs on it's inhabitants' fear of retribution?

I'm sure most of us would like to think not, but history tells us otherwise.

If you know of a society that has successfully operated in accordance with love and truth, by all means, enlighten me.

Do you think we have the power as collective democracies to change our respective societies into ones run by love and truth?

I mean, that's what everyone wants, right?

EDIT: I don't wanna be jacking anyone's thread. Would my posts be suitable for a new thread?

Edited by seeker28 (11/17/09 11:59 AM)

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Ferris]
    #11473343 - 11/17/09 11:52 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
haha not me, i'm from an ex-ussr country




Must be Ukraine.  All that radiation has addled you brain ;-)




but they said it's good for you :frown:


anyone read about how stalin wanted to breed an ape/human hybrid as a perfect socialist worker?


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11473360 - 11/17/09 11:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
anyone read about how stalin wanted to breed an ape/human hybrid as a perfect socialist worker?




Lol, no.  I'm pretty sure that's not possible either.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Ferris]
    #11473396 - 11/17/09 12:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

stalin wanted a strong worker with low intelligence so it would not protest and would have greater stamina in war and be satisfied with substandard food. a scientist was sent to africa to impregnate gorillas with human sperm. i'm sure the scientist had a lot of fun but the project went nowhere.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: seeker28]
    #11473804 - 11/17/09 01:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The capitalist death toll is definitely underestimated. Even just in Vietnam they killed about 1 million Vietnamese, destabilized Cambodia which lead to another 4 million. So already we have 1 million direct kills and 4 million kills in which they are guilty of involvement. And this is just one conflict, there is much more. But this is all done under several different leaders so its hard to include them in this thread.

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: DimensionX]
    #11473872 - 11/17/09 01:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Wouldn't those deaths be shared by communists?  Vietnam was communist vs. capitalism.

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: DimensionX]
    #11474054 - 11/17/09 01:56 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
The capitalist death toll is definitely underestimated. Even just in Vietnam they killed about 1 million Vietnamese, destabilized Cambodia which lead to another 4 million. So already we have 1 million direct kills and 4 million kills in which they are guilty of involvement. And this is just one conflict, there is much more. But this is all done under several different leaders so its hard to include them in this thread.



If you want to include all the thugs that the US propped up during the Cold War, then the capitalist death toll is quite profound.  But there's a question of to what degree you hold either the US or capitalism directly responsible for those deaths.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11474192 - 11/17/09 02:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

why not hold capitalism to that stander after all so many of you are so quick to blame communism.

Its not so much capitalism or communism kills. Its more like IMPERIALISM kills.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: fapjack]
    #11476525 - 11/18/09 12:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
How can you blame Hitler for all the deaths of WW2?  Also, this is probably one of the stupidest arguements I've seen this month.  Why don't you fags argue about who is more Awesome Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal while your at it.  Bring this lame shit back to the right forum.



How dare this forum have an intelligent discussion on past history.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11476550 - 11/18/09 12:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm still stickin with Stalin.

Read Journey into the Whirlwind.

Stalin was a paranoid madman.

He gained power by killing everyone who was in power next to him by calling them traitors.

Trotsky actually escaped Stalin's wrath only to be killed by an assasin in Mexico.

That's how brutal Stalin was.  Plus the 10-20 million murders of regular people.


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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: FeedingMyDreams]
    #11476754 - 11/18/09 03:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FeedingMyDreams said:
I'm still stickin with Stalin.

Read Journey into the Whirlwind.

Stalin was a paranoid madman.

He gained power by killing everyone who was in power next to him by calling them traitors.

Trotsky actually escaped Stalin's wrath only to be killed by an assasin in Mexico.

That's how brutal Stalin was.  Plus the 10-20 million murders of regular people.




Ye, no one is defending him, he was a damn asshole.

My grandmother got stories:

She worked at a shelter for homeless children, a woman stole a role of thread from there, that woman got 5 years in prison.

A man she knew got drunk in a bar and told a joke:

Why is Lenin standing in nice shoes and with hand stretched out on all statues, and Stalin in hight military boots and hand inside his jacket?

Because Lenin gives to people and is clean, while Stalin puts all in his pocket and is up to the knees in his own shit.

Same night that man got visit from two people that informed him that he has been found guilty for inciting rebellion agains the state, he had 15 minutes to pack warm cloth and say goodbye to his family, he was never seen again.

Probably got 20 years or so sentence sent to working camp in siberia where he died due to sickness or tried/said something stupid and got executed.


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OfflineDeltron3030
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11476879 - 11/18/09 06:12 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)



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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Deltron3030]
    #11476962 - 11/18/09 06:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

it's open door day in hell. a visitor asks the guide: "why is it that hitler is neck deep in shit but stalin is only belly deep?" and the guide says "cus he's sitting on lenins shoulders."
:crazy2:


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Offlineseeker28
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Deltron3030]
    #11476990 - 11/18/09 07:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deltron3030 said:




:ilold:

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Invisibletrekie
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11476999 - 11/18/09 07:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Trotsky didnt escape the ussr he was exiled. The rest of his life he had to use false names and  move around. I have many of his books. Even by Trotsky own account the ussr stopped being communist as soon as Stalin took power.  You should read in defense of Marxism. It talks of soviet contrition pre ww2. He even predicts what happens (most was written 1934-1940.

I think of all the "communist" leaders he did try to have the peoples best interest at heart


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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.


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OfflineBuben
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11477666 - 11/18/09 10:26 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
it's open door day in hell. a visitor asks the guide: "why is it that hitler is neck deep in shit but stalin is only belly deep?" and the guide says "cus he's sitting on lenins shoulders."
:crazy2:




Let me guess, you are form Lithuania,  Latvia or Estonia?


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My blog with thoughts I get.

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Drugs are paradoxical, you think you can solve all the worlds problems with philosophy, but if you drop a coin you will never fucking find it.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11477733 - 11/18/09 10:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Buben said:
Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
it's open door day in hell. a visitor asks the guide: "why is it that hitler is neck deep in shit but stalin is only belly deep?" and the guide says "cus he's sitting on lenins shoulders."
:crazy2:




Let me guess, you are form Lithuania,  Latvia or Estonia?



maybe
:acslater:


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OfflineBuben
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11477765 - 11/18/09 10:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
Quote:

Buben said:
Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
it's open door day in hell. a visitor asks the guide: "why is it that hitler is neck deep in shit but stalin is only belly deep?" and the guide says "cus he's sitting on lenins shoulders."
:crazy2:




Let me guess, you are form Lithuania,  Latvia or Estonia?



maybe
:acslater:




:grin:

Estonia it is then. :wink:


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My blog with thoughts I get.

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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Buben]
    #11478272 - 11/18/09 12:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You're all wrong, Dr Doom is clearly the worst dictator.



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Discuss Politics

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Invisibletrekie
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Ferris]
    #11478302 - 11/18/09 12:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No i beg to differ


--------------------
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Cowgold]
    #11478339 - 11/18/09 12:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cowgold said:
Wouldn't those deaths be shared by communists?  Vietnam was communist vs. capitalism.




It was 1 million north Vietnamese deaths. It doesn't include the deaths of the people in the south. It was mainly the product of carpet bombings and extermination campaigns undertaken by technological super powers against a developing country.

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OfflineFeedingMyDreams
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Re: Worst Dictator in the Past 100 Years... [Re: Ferris]
    #11482925 - 11/18/09 11:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
You're all wrong, Dr Doom is clearly the worst dictator.





he's an asshole

but.........


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"It's spaghetti time."

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