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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflinejivJaN
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Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11450449 - 11/13/09 08:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

dont work like that.
they dont violate free will.

they trick you into agreeing.
that part is most of the magic.

i would rather dismantle such a police order than the 'spiritual evil' you speak of.

they teach us something very valuable.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: jivJaN]
    #11450501 - 11/13/09 08:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Nevyn said:
and for the other dimensions and universes overlaying ours where the laws of order may be other than the ones that govern ours..?
I do agree, I just pose the question.




Different universes would require different laws.  I'm mainly concerned about the one we live in.  :smile:

Quote:

jivJaN said:
they dont violate free will.




Yes, higher order angelic beings and/or extraterrestrials don't violate free will.  This is because they want us to learn from our own mistakes; to take matters into our own hands rather than wait for external salvation.  God helps those who help themselves, as the old saying goes.  Fortunately we have the chance to help ourselves, and we can do so by preventing further suffering on this world.  The most efficient way to do this is to bind or stop the evildoers.

Quote:

jivJaN said:
i would rather dismantle such a police order than the 'spiritual evil' you speak of.

they teach us something very valuable.




This I just can't understand.  To take an analogy, you would dismantle the mundane police force just so a pedophile can teach us 'something valuable' by continuing to rape and torture little children?  Free will is going to continue to be violated here; it's just a question of whether it'll be the free will of the innocent or the free will of the evildoer.  I choose the latter because I don't like to see suffering around me.

You're correct in that evil teaches us something very valuable, BTW.  It teaches us that we have a chance to get rid of it.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineNevyn
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Registered: 10/30/09
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Loc: Wanderer
Last seen: 14 years, 13 days
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11450577 - 11/13/09 08:53 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:

Different universes would require different laws.  I'm mainly concerned about the one we live in.  :smile:





Yes but if to get to said evildoer behind all manor of psychic screens it may be easier to dip into another dimension and pop up
behind him/her/it/them before/during/after. If that is the case, then even for a fraction of an instant the rules of that place may apply. 

But all that aside.  If rippling capes are involved then a handshake must certainly be created


--------------------
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour. ~WB

~~In the Thoughts they occured in the order they happened to be


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11450613 - 11/13/09 08:59 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

gaps


Quote:

Yes, higher order angelic beings and/or extraterrestrials don't violate free will.  This is because they want us to learn from our own mistakes; to take matters into our own hands rather than wait for external salvation.




one of these beings is you. we will call him mega-me.

Quote:

This I just can't understand.  To take an analogy, you would dismantle the mundane police force just so a pedophile can teach us 'something valuable' by continuing to rape and torture little children?




mega-me made it happen.
you agreed.
then you were born.
then you got it up the butt.
it hurt.

you ever watch the fountain ?
lol


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: jivJaN]
    #11450734 - 11/13/09 09:20 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
mega-me made it happen.
you agreed.
then you were born.
then you got it up the butt.
it hurt.




You can't believe this and at the same time believe in free will.  Either my experiences have already been determined or I along with the rest of humanity still have the chance to choose our destinies.  Evil is not caused by a predetermined agreement; evil is caused by the free will of the attacker in choosing to violate my own.  If we have a choice between choosing a future filled with suffering and a future filled with happiness, the choice is logical: we should prevent suffering.

Presumably you want to avoid violations of free will (this is what separates the positive polarity from the negative, after all).  Either countless numbers of children will continue to have their free will violated by being raped and tortured by the pedophile, or we can put an end to his reign of terror by violating his.  He made the choice to manipulate so now we can fairly and justly manipulate him (ironic how it usually ends up working this way).

Belief that all suffering was somehow previously agreed to only gives license for evil to walk all over us.  I'd rather believe that I have the power to determine my own destiny and make the world a better place.  My mega-me wants me to stick up for others.  How about yours?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineDimensionX
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Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia Flag
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: jivJaN]
    #11450763 - 11/13/09 09:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Of course they can violate free will. A human has no problem violating another beings free will and humans are involved here. Not to mention the possibility of other types of beings who are most likely just as free to preform these actions as we are.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11450922 - 11/13/09 09:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Either my experiences have already been determined or I along with the rest of humanity still have the chance to choose our destinies.




this !

stop there..

think about that one.

it takes a really fucked up understanding of how "time" works to see that it really isn't one or the other ..




Quote:

You can't believe this and at the same time believe in free will.




the question is..
WHOS will is FREE ?
who are you ?

lets assume that all the cells of your body are conscious... and you commit suicide :smile:

its kinda funny ya know..

the troubles and problems we obsess with..

as compassionate as  i can be..
sometimes i tend to look at everything in ,what seems to others,  very bizarre way , although it makes perfect sense to me.

there are no mistakes.



tonights special : Salsa .. and confusion.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: jivJaN]
    #11451177 - 11/13/09 10:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
it takes a really fucked up understanding of how "time" works to see that it really isn't one or the other




Even if everything has been set in stone, even if all we have is the illusion of free will... we still have to act as if we have free will.  Every day you consciously make choices; even if you choose not to do anything you've still made that choice.  And if we have the choice between two potential future scenarios, one with suffering and the other with happiness, I along with the majority of healthy human beings will choose the scenario without suffering. 

I choose to stop other human beings from willfully causing others to suffer.  Perhaps my choice has already been made, and nobody is really responsible for their actions, but nonetheless I have to make a decision whether or not I will stop an evildoer.

Quote:

jivJaN said:
there are no mistakes




Of course there are mistakes.  It was a mistake for me to drive drunk and kill an innocent woman.  It was a mistake for me not to call the cops on a rapist when I had the chance.  It was a mistake for me not to use proper safety precautions when handling that chainsaw.  And so on and on.  You can derive great meaning from your own suffering and the suffering of those around you if you want, and you can choose not to interfere or help anybody else because you believe it was all meant to happen, but I choose to give myself responsibility for my actions even if ultimately I don't have any.  Sometimes bad things happen because of stupid decisions, and I'll do what I can to prevent further bad things from happening in the future.  If we all agreed to this before incarnating, then I already agreed to help others and stop evil.

All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineyeah
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Registered: 02/08/09
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Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11452389 - 11/14/09 07:18 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

you have my bow


--------------------


Edited by yeah (11/14/09 08:31 PM)


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OfflinejivJaN
yes
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Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11452934 - 11/14/09 10:08 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Even if everything has been set in stone, even if all we have is the illusion of free will... we still have to act as if we have free will.




sure


Quote:

I choose to stop other human beings from willfully causing others to suffer.




sure..

but if you knew just how much of the suffering we cause without even knowing , you would have to stop EVERYBODY.

not to mention the whole lot of those people willfully causing suffering , whilst being utterly convinced that they are doing 'good'

Quote:

If we all agreed to this before incarnating, then I already agreed to help others and stop evil.




thats exactly how you would think , no matter what you do.
and..
theres no mistake in doing that either.


i used the example of your body in the case of suicide.
if you think that all the cells are conscious ..
are you willfully causing them to suffer a horrible death ?

at first glance.. one gets the idea that free will absolutely is a myth.
but look further..
you will see that there only ever was - your will.

we need chronic777  up in this beotch !
:rofl:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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OfflineMycomyth
Demented Avenger
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Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 341
Loc: At the crux of the matter...
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11452954 - 11/14/09 10:12 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:

Even if everything has been set in stone, even if all we have is the illusion of free will... we still have to act as if we have free will.
 
...but I choose to give myself responsibility for my actions even if ultimately I don't have any. 




Don Juan said to Carlos something to the effect of....

"A Warrior sometimes has no idea what he is doing. Yet his every thought and action is performed as if he knew EXACTLY what he were doing."

This is from memory, and may not be a verbatim quote, but the gist remains.

M


--------------------
Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: Mycomyth]
    #11452974 - 11/14/09 10:17 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

it does not. there's no reason it would. magicians are individuals who would not band together for such a common goal as to track down another magician. the "police" itself would be black or "evil", taking down the competition for more power.


--------------------


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OfflinejivJaN
yes
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Registered: 08/09/08
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: Mycomyth]
    #11452975 - 11/14/09 10:17 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

it was the heeeeeeaaaat ooooooof the mooooooomeeeent


:rofl:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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OfflineMycomyth
Demented Avenger
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Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 341
Loc: At the crux of the matter...
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11452985 - 11/14/09 10:18 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
...to take matters into our own hands rather than wait for external salvation. 





I've come to understand that there is no 'external salvation'.
-edit- Clarification....Salvation is external, but must be initiated internally.

"Who will save your soul?"
Jewel


M


--------------------
Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.


Edited by Mycomyth (11/14/09 12:21 PM)


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Registered: 05/19/08
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11453016 - 11/14/09 10:24 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:

You can't believe this and at the same time believe in free will. 




Wouldn't an infinite number of parallel Universes allow for both determinism and free will co-exist?

Every choice you could ever make is mapped out before you, yet you choose which path to take. Your internal vibrational frequency mirrors the world you are choosing to live in?


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OfflineMycomyth
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11453023 - 11/14/09 10:26 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
it does not. there's no reason it would. magicians are individuals who would not band together for such a common goal as to track down another magician. the "police" itself would be black or "evil", taking down the competition for more power.




Did you mean this reply to my post?
Because I agree with you...no Warrior would dare to infringe upon another like that, unless the action or will of the other was directed at himself. Then all bets are off.

M


--------------------
Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
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Registered: 09/16/06
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: Mycomyth]
    #11453031 - 11/14/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mycomyth said:
Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
it does not. there's no reason it would. magicians are individuals who would not band together for such a common goal as to track down another magician. the "police" itself would be black or "evil", taking down the competition for more power.




Did you mean this reply to my post?
Because I agree with you...no Warrior would dare to infringe upon another like that, unless the action or will of the other was directed at himself. Then all bets are off.

M



ahh no, it was a reply to the OP, didn't read any other posts before i posted my own.


--------------------


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OfflineMycomyth
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #11453044 - 11/14/09 10:31 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Oh...ok. Sorry then. It's all good.

It's a self-policing structure, this glorious existence.

M


--------------------
Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Magical Police Force [Re: Mycomyth]
    #11453843 - 11/14/09 01:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
but if you knew just how much of the suffering we cause without even knowing , you would have to stop EVERYBODY.

not to mention the whole lot of those people willfully causing suffering , whilst being utterly convinced that they are doing 'good'




You're making a slippery slope here when there really isn't one.  Sure, most of us inadvertently cause suffering every once in a while.  Sure, there are the rare cases where a person is convinced he or she is doing good when instead they are really causing more suffering.  I'm not talking about these cases.  I'm talking about someone who enjoys murdering for the fun of it, someone who enjoys dominating other people's will in order to steal everything they have, someone who commits human sacrifice just to extend their own power.  These are clear cut examples where binding the aggressor will prevent more innocent victims from being terrorized, just like there are clear cut examples of murderers, thieves, and rapists whom it is our duty to find and arrest with our local police force.

Quote:

b0red5tiff said:
it does not. there's no reason it would. magicians are individuals who would not band together for such a common goal as to track down another magician. the "police" itself would be black or "evil", taking down the competition for more power.




Magicians tend to be individualistic, sure, but I see no reason why an order shouldn't exist to stop such magical atrocities as I've previously mentioned.  I've read quite a few accounts of covens temporarily banding together to bind a serial killer from continuing his rampage, for instance.  Corruption of the order is of course possible but I believe the benefits would far outweigh this possibility.  There's a reason why America shifted from Wild Wild West vigilantism to law and order.

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

deCypher said:

You can't believe this and at the same time believe in free will. 




Wouldn't an infinite number of parallel Universes allow for both determinism and free will co-exist?

Every choice you could ever make is mapped out before you, yet you choose which path to take. Your internal vibrational frequency mirrors the world you are choosing to live in?




Yes, I think this might mirror reality pretty closely actually.  I was arguing against jivJaN's conception of what happens before my incarnation fixing in stone what happens during the incarnation.


Quote:

Mycomyth said:
no Warrior would dare to infringe upon another like that, unless the action or will of the other was directed at himself. Then all bets are off.




The problem with this is that magickal aggressors could potentially attack anyone the next time they go searching for a victim.  This is why we have a police force, so that we can pre-emptively stop a rapist or thief before they pick off another unsuspecting target.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
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Re: Magical Police Force [Re: deCypher]
    #11453881 - 11/14/09 01:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Magicians tend to be individualistic, sure, but I see no reason why an order shouldn't exist to stop such magical atrocities as I've previously mentioned.  I've read quite a few accounts of covens temporarily banding together to bind a serial killer from continuing his rampage, for instance.  Corruption of the order is of course possible but I believe the benefits would far outweigh this possibility.  There's a reason why America shifted from Wild Wild West vigilantism to law and order.




i don't consider covens magicians. isn't a coven already a group of people working together (an organization)? i don't know what makes one a magician anyway and sounds like covens just pray together real hard through unconventional measures.


--------------------


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