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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: showme]
    #11445082 - 11/12/09 10:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What's the point of salvation if not eternal happiness?


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Invisibleshowme
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Registered: 01/23/09
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: deCypher]
    #11445100 - 11/12/09 10:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Avoiding eternal hell. The point is you have a soul that won't die.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: deCypher]
    #11445163 - 11/12/09 10:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

A life of eternal unhappiness sounds dismal indeed. I guess because hell is a place of fire and wailing and gnashing of teeth, you're supposed to assume that heaven is a happy place, but really all they say is that it's a city with walls and a large gate and it is constructed from fine materials.

I know some places like that, and brother, they ain't where I'd want to spend eternity...  :chugbeer:


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Invisibleshowme
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: jimbotron]
    #11445195 - 11/12/09 11:04 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Hahaha, true you can't make out a place just by physical description. I think the reason why heaven is heaven is because you spend eternity with Christ, who's madly in love with you and you Him.


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Imagination is the organ of meaning.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: showme]
    #11445229 - 11/12/09 11:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

But my point is that the goal is still happiness in some form or other.  This is what ultimately motivates everyone here on Earth; the difference is in what each human sees as happiness.  Some seek it in union with God, others in family and relationships, others in bodily pleasures and drugs, and still others in suicidal oblivion.

My personal belief with regard to Jesus Christ is that his original philosophy was intended to promote peace and happiness here on Earth.  Everything in the Bible about the afterlife (both eternal life in Paradise and eternal torment with the damned) seems to be designed as a fear-oriented tactic to make people behave in a certain way in this life.  If you don't act morally and be nice to others, you won't get to go to heaven.  If you act selfishly and immorally, you'll suffer eternal punishment after you die.  A truly moral person shouldn't need a carrot and a stick to incentivize themselves to be moral.  The unverifiability of the afterlife and the compelling amount of neuroscientific evidence in existence today that points towards our consciousness ceasing when our brain dies helps adds further weight to this theory; in my opinion the Church uses this heavy handed tactic to maintain the social order as people respond very well to fear.  In addition the fact that the Bible claims that Jesus is the one only true way to achieve this strikes me as a fear-oriented tactic to keep people from drifting away from the faith and losing followers.  The existence of many other religions including Islam that have these key institutional tactics also makes it much less likely that any one of these is correct over the others.

All in my opinion, of course.  I think all you need is love to be happy, and this can be found in a myriad of different ways.  :mushroom2: :inlove: :peace:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleshowme
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: deCypher]
    #11445350 - 11/12/09 11:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, I get what you're saying on different happiness.

And I agree that many churches are corrupt and focus too much on fire and brimstone, scaring you into doing good works and being a moral person. That is why no one should base their spiritual life on going to church. It's about your relationship with God, that's simply ALL.

Does it not make sense that with everything else the Bible states, that Jesus would be the only way? It wouldn't work if it stated otherwise. If you dig deeper and think about WHY Jesus is the only way, it shouldn't strike you as fear-oriented, rather logical.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: showme]
    #11445369 - 11/12/09 11:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

If you're meaning Jesus as being synonymous with Love, then sure I'll agree that Love is the only way to true happiness.

I find it improbable that I have to believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, that he was resurrected after three days, that a God exists, or in any other Christian tenet in order to find happiness.  All I need is love in my heart; whether I find this love through Jesus or Mohammed or Buddha makes no difference.  They're all different signposts pointing the way to this realization.  I find it ridiculous to say that just because a good hearted man isn't a Christian he's going to Hell.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineShrazoom
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: jimbotron]
    #11445470 - 11/12/09 11:54 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

need the assurance that God won't forget you.


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Invisibleshowme
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: deCypher]
    #11445480 - 11/12/09 11:56 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I found it ridiculous too, in fact the mere statement that Hell existed played a major role in me turning more and more agnostic and leading me further from my faith. But then I realized that it made sense. Yes, according to our standards, sending a good man who doesn't believe in this particular God to hell is ridiculous... but God isn't judging according to our standards. A good hearted man doesn't mean sinless, and in the eyes of God ALL sins no matter how small are evil. Imagine, a Loving and Just God. He has to balance His desire to be merciful and his desire to be just. This is why he sacrificed his son Jesus Christ, the spotless Lamb, to die for our sins so that we may be forgiven and SAVED.

but I understand that people do not get saved by debates or intellectual conversations or people pushing their belief on others, but by the grace of God. anyways, I'm glad that you have realized Love.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: showme]
    #11445529 - 11/13/09 12:10 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Right on.  Likewise I'm glad you have a good heart!

To me it would make more sense for God (if He exists) to be a being of pure Love.  Thus God does not send anyone to Hell; instead it is the actions of the person which determines whether he or she comes closer to the Source or further away from it.  By murdering others, stealing their possessions, and holding hate in your heart you are casting yourself into outer darkness away from God's Light, but God is always there waiting with eternal forgiveness should you choose to repent for your sins and love once more.  In this sense I feel it's far more likely that Heaven and Hell are merely states of mind; metaphors for your level of happiness and relation with others and God.

Being saved and having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is an interesting event, though.  I once believed I was Christ while on a mushroom trip (this probably doesn't count though :lol:).  If you don't mind, could you explain how you were saved?  What was the experience like?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: deCypher]
    #11445632 - 11/13/09 12:38 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I was a good little religious boy and then I started having sex and smoking pot and realized that everything I'd ever been told by the church was a lie. Then I became a biologist and realized just how embarassingly dumb the average American Christian is when it comes to, ummmm, reality -- no other modern nation has this many fucking creationists. And then you've got your pedophile priests and pervert pastors - the general principle being, the more often somebody rails about how gay people are evil, the more likely they are to have little boys chained up in their basement. And then there's a certain former President of the United States whose actions I won't even go into...

I now think the stupidity and hypocrisy of the Christian God's adherents are proof that he either does not exist or has no shame.



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OfflineKhemikalz
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Registered: 11/05/09
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: jimbotron]
    #11447254 - 11/13/09 11:20 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i fucking HATE christians!


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Offlineganja_guru
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Re: Presence, the Lord, and Mckenna [Re: Khemikalz]
    #11447333 - 11/13/09 11:36 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

lol some are ok.I like the christians that go to church not to praise christ and that bs but to not go to hell.makes me lmao when some1 hits a rail of h after  church.


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