|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429196 - 11/10/09 09:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
CaptainCrunch said: but is it the idea behind murder that makes it not ok?
Entirely depends upon what moral justification a person uses. If you're a Kantian you would say that murder is not okay because it violates the categorical imperative. If you're a utilitarian you would say that murder is not okay because it would decrease the net balance of pleasure compare to pain in the world. If you're a Humean you would say that murder is not okay because the act goes against your natural emotions. And so on ad infinitum.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
CaptainCrunch
Contrary ToPopular Belief
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 934
Loc: Somwhere Over the rainbow
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: deCypher]
#11429222 - 11/10/09 09:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
"evolution has hard-wired our brains to be a social species which makes murder repulsive to most of us."
Wouldn't it be just as much of a leap of faith to assume God rather than evolution?
|
CaptainCrunch
Contrary ToPopular Belief
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 934
Loc: Somwhere Over the rainbow
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: deCypher]
#11429257 - 11/10/09 09:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
quote]deCypher said:
Quote:
CaptainCrunch said: but is it the idea behind murder that makes it not ok?
Entirely depends upon what moral justification a person uses. If you're a Kantian you would say that murder is not okay because it violates the categorical imperative. If you're a utilitarian you would say that murder is not okay because it would decrease the net balance of pleasure compare to pain in the world. If you're a Humean you would say that murder is not okay because the act goes against your natural emotions. And so on ad infinitum.
who would say that murder is right?
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429286 - 11/10/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
There's evidence for evolution. Faith not required.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429301 - 11/10/09 09:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
CaptainCrunch said: who would say that murder is right?
Well, an ethical egoist would say that murder can be okay if doing it benefits the murderer. A moral nihilist would say that murder is okay because nothing is truly immoral. A moral relativist would say that murder is okay if the ethical norms of the murderer's society say that it's okay. And so on.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
CaptainCrunch
Contrary ToPopular Belief
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 934
Loc: Somwhere Over the rainbow
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: Diploid]
#11429324 - 11/10/09 09:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: There's evidence for evolution. Faith not required.
as much evidence science can put fourth so can Christianity.. how do you "KNOW" for indisputable fact that evolution in it's entirety is correct. could the same question not be put fourth too the christian?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429357 - 11/10/09 09:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
In fact there is an unlimited amount of "evidence" for christanity as it doesn't have to be logical or make any sense at all.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
CaptainCrunch
Contrary ToPopular Belief
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 934
Loc: Somwhere Over the rainbow
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: deCypher]
#11429386 - 11/10/09 09:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
CaptainCrunch said: who would say that murder is right?
Well, an ethical egoist would say that murder can be okay if doing it benefits the murderer. A moral nihilist would say that murder is okay because nothing is truly immoral. A moral relativist would say that murder is okay if the ethical norms of the murderer's society say that it's okay. And so on.
ok take Nietzsche forinstince and compare to Ecclesiastes who says " The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. 3 What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun? 4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. 5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. 6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. 7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. 8 All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. 9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after. "
I cut alot because i dont want this to be a block of text but here is Ecclesiastes conclusion....
"13 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness. 14 The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all. 15 Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity. 16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool. 17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit. 18 ¶ Yea, I hated all my labor which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me. 19 And who knoweth whether he shall be a wise man or a fool? yet shall he have rule over all my labor wherein I have labored, and wherein I have showed myself wise under the sun. This is also vanity. 20 Therefore I went about to cause my heart to despair of all the labor which I took under the sun. 21 For there is a man whose labor is in wisdom, and in knowledge, and in equity; yet to a man that hath not labored therein shall he leave it for his portion. This also is vanity and a great evil. 22 For what hath man of all his labor, and of the vexation of his heart, wherein he hath labored under the sun? 23 For all his days are sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity. 24 ¶ There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labor. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God. 25 For who can eat, or who else can hasten hereunto, more than I? 26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight, wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit."
compare Nietzsche to Ecclesiastes which mans conclusion is more correct? and what is the difference between the path to which each man gathered his conclusion?ie.(faith)
Edited by CaptainCrunch (11/10/09 09:48 PM)
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429416 - 11/10/09 09:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
There is no objective answer as to whether Nietzsche is more correct than Ecclesiastes when it comes to moral theory. If you're a Christian then those arguments from the Bible probably make more subjective sense; if you're not then they won't.
Personally I wouldn't murder someone except in self-defense because I don't want to propagate negativity. Acting compassionately towards others is ultimately the most beneficial option for my own happiness IMO.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429417 - 11/10/09 09:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Excellent...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: deCypher]
#11429435 - 11/10/09 09:54 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said: If you're a Christian then those arguments from the Bible probably make more subjective sense; if you're not then they won't.
Necessarily?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: Poid]
#11429443 - 11/10/09 09:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Not necessarily.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
CaptainCrunch
Contrary ToPopular Belief
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 934
Loc: Somwhere Over the rainbow
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: deCypher]
#11429466 - 11/10/09 09:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said: There is no objective answer as to whether Nietzsche is more correct than Ecclesiastes when it comes to moral theory. If you're a Christian then those arguments from the Bible probably make more subjective sense; if you're not then they won't.
Personally I wouldn't murder someone except in self-defense because I don't want to propagate negativity. Acting compassionately towards others is ultimately the most beneficial option for my own happiness IMO.
so basically when approaching moral theory it's not a question of legitimacy or who is more right, rather that you believe or you don't.. more importantly why you believe or don't?
Edited by CaptainCrunch (11/10/09 09:59 PM)
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429486 - 11/10/09 10:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I'd say so. Some of course would disagree because they buy into a particular moral theory; they then use this theory to judge who is right and who is wrong when it comes to individual situations. The existence of so many competing moral theories and the more or less uniform disagreement between most moral philosophers, however, leads me to believe that no particular moral theory is objectively correct for all.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
CaptainCrunch
Contrary ToPopular Belief
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 934
Loc: Somwhere Over the rainbow
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: deCypher]
#11429573 - 11/10/09 10:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
So.. If a objective moral theory; subjectively could not be correct.. than a subjective moral theory could objectively be incorrect?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429582 - 11/10/09 10:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, if objective morality exists in the first place.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 13 years, 20 hours
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: deCypher]
#11429603 - 11/10/09 10:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I object!
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: C.M. Mann]
#11429610 - 11/10/09 10:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Overruled.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
CaptainCrunch
Contrary ToPopular Belief
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 934
Loc: Somwhere Over the rainbow
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: deCypher]
#11429637 - 11/10/09 10:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said: Yes, if objective morality exists in the first place.
Was existence not presupposed? and furthermore than what is the difference between believing and not, what benefit do you gain by not believing?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Beautiful proposal ethical/moral contradiction [Re: CaptainCrunch]
#11429722 - 11/10/09 10:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Not at all, in fact for reasons that I already stated I believe it's quite improbable that objective morality exists.
If we assume that an objective morality exists, though, then it is in our best interest to follow it if we wish to remain virtuous. This of course assumes that we can get to know what this objective morality is in the first place.
Now, the benefits of remaining virtuous are trickier to pin down. Depending upon the specifics of the objective morality, this could be anything from eternal life in Paradise to there actually being no selfish benefit whatsoever.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
|