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OfflineSeussA
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The role of religion in modern politics
    #11419854 - 11/09/09 05:36 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

In the US there is a fairly clear separation of the church and the state.  The Christian fundamentalists still try to legislate their religious beliefs, but for the most part, government is free from religious doctrine.  However, this is not the case with all countries.  Many countries, such as Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc, have a government which is based upon religious law.  As such, when debating about Judaism, or Islam, it is often difficult to differentiate between politics and religion.  A gray area exists where the two subjects often overlap.

Take, for example, the recent shooting at Fort Hood by a Muslim Army Major.  There is a lot of speculation in the media that the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  Assuming this speculation is accurate, is this a religious discussion or a political discussion?  To me, given the above assumption, it is a bit of both.  It is a religious discussion because the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  At the same time, it is a political discussion  because the shooting was motivated by a conflict between a persons religious beliefs and the cultural, political, and moral values of the People.

What if the guy simply went insane?  In this case, is it a religious issue, a political issue, or something else entirely?  Regardless, because it happened on a US Military Base, the merits of a political discussion are valid.  Even if it had not happened on a US Military Base, it would still be applicable to Political Discussion because the insanity would be directed against the cultural, plitical, and moral values of the People... much like Charles Manson or the Unibomber, both of which have set precedence being debated in the political forum.

It is sad that censorship has played such a prevalent role in modern society with respect to religious sensitivities.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Zionism without risk of being labeled antisemitic.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Islam without risk of being labeled an Islamaphobe.  Such labels do nothing other than stifle healthy debate.  The sooner we learn to appreciate differing viewpoints, rather than applying labels, the sooner we can learn to live together, accepting our differences.

The Fort Hood shooting, unfortunately, provides us with an excellent case study of the gray area between politics and religion.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out as speculation is confirmed or denied.  Thoughts on this subject?


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Seuss]
    #11419911 - 11/09/09 05:44 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

So you can make this thread if you're an Admin, but user threads on the same topic get locked?

Fuck this.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #11420943 - 11/09/09 08:21 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, I think he may well be subject to having this thread locked by a certain person.  I have severally times tried to produce a thread that in some way passes Pris' muster.  Why not Seuss as well.  Fuck, I think that every  Politics regular should be obligated to start a thread, just to make that tool lock it.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #11421287 - 11/09/09 09:10 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Lets stay on topic, please.


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Seuss]
    #11422055 - 11/09/09 10:33 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
In the US there is a fairly clear separation of the church and the state.  The Christian fundamentalists still try to legislate their religious beliefs, but for the most part, government is free from religious doctrine.  However, this is not the case with all countries.  Many countries, such as Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc, have a government which is based upon religious law.  As such, when debating about Judaism, or Islam, it is often difficult to differentiate between politics and religion.  A gray area exists where the two subjects often overlap.


If the two subjects overlap, then isn't it appropriate to discuss the political aspects of the grey area here in the 'Political Discussion' forum?



Quote:

Seuss said:
Take, for example, the recent shooting at Fort Hood by a Muslim Army Major.  There is a lot of speculation in the media that the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  Assuming this speculation is accurate, is this a religious discussion or a political discussion?  To me, given the above assumption, it is a bit of both.  It is a religious discussion because the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  At the same time, it is a political discussion  because the shooting was motivated by a conflict between a persons religious beliefs and the cultural, political, and moral values of the People.


It seems that it would be appropriate to discuss the possible political aspects of this event in this here 'Political Discussion' forum. :shrug:



Quote:

Seuss said:
What if the guy simply went insane?  In this case, is it a religious issue, a political issue, or something else entirely?  Regardless, because it happened on a US Military Base, the merits of a political discussion are valid.  Even if it had not happened on a US Military Base, it would still be applicable to Political Discussion because the insanity would be directed against the cultural, plitical, and moral values of the People... much like Charles Manson or the Unibomber, both of which have set precedence being debated in the political forum.


Why wouldn't speaking about the possible motivations of this crime (whether they be religious or not) be appropriate for this forum?



Quote:

Seuss said:
It is sad that censorship has played such a prevalent role in modern society with respect to religious sensitivities.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Zionism without risk of being labeled antisemitic.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Islam without risk of being labeled an Islamaphobe.  Such labels do nothing other than stifle healthy debate.  The sooner we learn to appreciate differing viewpoints, rather than applying labels, the sooner we can learn to live together, accepting our differences.


Yup! :hug:



Quote:

Seuss said:
The Fort Hood shooting, unfortunately, provides us with an excellent case study of the gray area between politics and religion.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out as speculation is confirmed or denied.  Thoughts on this subject?


I haven't looked too deeply into this issue, but I wouldn't doubt that it was motivated by Islam.

Either way, I do not see how discussing the possible motivations about this apparently political issue is inappropriate in this forum. :shrug2:


--------------------
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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Seuss]
    #11422104 - 11/09/09 10:40 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
In the US there is a fairly clear separation of the church and the state.  The Christian fundamentalists still try to legislate their religious beliefs, but for the most part, government is free from religious doctrine.  However, this is not the case with all countries.  Many countries, such as Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc, have a government which is based upon religious law.  As such, when debating about Judaism, or Islam, it is often difficult to differentiate between politics and religion.  A gray area exists where the two subjects often overlap.

Take, for example, the recent shooting at Fort Hood by a Muslim Army Major.  There is a lot of speculation in the media that the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  Assuming this speculation is accurate, is this a religious discussion or a political discussion?  To me, given the above assumption, it is a bit of both.  It is a religious discussion because the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  At the same time, it is a political discussion  because the shooting was motivated by a conflict between a persons religious beliefs and the cultural, political, and moral values of the People.

What if the guy simply went insane?  In this case, is it a religious issue, a political issue, or something else entirely?  Regardless, because it happened on a US Military Base, the merits of a political discussion are valid.  Even if it had not happened on a US Military Base, it would still be applicable to Political Discussion because the insanity would be directed against the cultural, plitical, and moral values of the People... much like Charles Manson or the Unibomber, both of which have set precedence being debated in the political forum.

It is sad that censorship has played such a prevalent role in modern society with respect to religious sensitivities.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Zionism without risk of being labeled antisemitic.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Islam without risk of being labeled an Islamaphobe.  Such labels do nothing other than stifle healthy debate.  The sooner we learn to appreciate differing viewpoints, rather than applying labels, the sooner we can learn to live together, accepting our differences.

The Fort Hood shooting, unfortunately, provides us with an excellent case study of the gray area between politics and religion.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out as speculation is confirmed or denied.  Thoughts on this subject?




majority of the world leaders today are Luciferian and they are not even open about the fact that they incorporate it into politics

so how is religion and state separate again?

I think we're finding out first hand that this is an impossibility


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Invisibleelementswrath
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11422120 - 11/09/09 10:41 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Life Upon Death said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
In the US there is a fairly clear separation of the church and the state.  The Christian fundamentalists still try to legislate their religious beliefs, but for the most part, government is free from religious doctrine.  However, this is not the case with all countries.  Many countries, such as Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc, have a government which is based upon religious law.  As such, when debating about Judaism, or Islam, it is often difficult to differentiate between politics and religion.  A gray area exists where the two subjects often overlap.

Take, for example, the recent shooting at Fort Hood by a Muslim Army Major.  There is a lot of speculation in the media that the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  Assuming this speculation is accurate, is this a religious discussion or a political discussion?  To me, given the above assumption, it is a bit of both.  It is a religious discussion because the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  At the same time, it is a political discussion  because the shooting was motivated by a conflict between a persons religious beliefs and the cultural, political, and moral values of the People.

What if the guy simply went insane?  In this case, is it a religious issue, a political issue, or something else entirely?  Regardless, because it happened on a US Military Base, the merits of a political discussion are valid.  Even if it had not happened on a US Military Base, it would still be applicable to Political Discussion because the insanity would be directed against the cultural, plitical, and moral values of the People... much like Charles Manson or the Unibomber, both of which have set precedence being debated in the political forum.

It is sad that censorship has played such a prevalent role in modern society with respect to religious sensitivities.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Zionism without risk of being labeled antisemitic.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Islam without risk of being labeled an Islamaphobe.  Such labels do nothing other than stifle healthy debate.  The sooner we learn to appreciate differing viewpoints, rather than applying labels, the sooner we can learn to live together, accepting our differences.

The Fort Hood shooting, unfortunately, provides us with an excellent case study of the gray area between politics and religion.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out as speculation is confirmed or denied.  Thoughts on this subject?




majority of the world leaders today are Luciferian and they are not even open about the fact that they incorporate it into politics

so how is religion and state separate again?

I think we're finding out first hand that this is an impossibility




sources?


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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: elementswrath]
    #11422213 - 11/09/09 10:51 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

elementswrath said:
Quote:

Life Upon Death said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
In the US there is a fairly clear separation of the church and the state.  The Christian fundamentalists still try to legislate their religious beliefs, but for the most part, government is free from religious doctrine.  However, this is not the case with all countries.  Many countries, such as Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc, have a government which is based upon religious law.  As such, when debating about Judaism, or Islam, it is often difficult to differentiate between politics and religion.  A gray area exists where the two subjects often overlap.

Take, for example, the recent shooting at Fort Hood by a Muslim Army Major.  There is a lot of speculation in the media that the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  Assuming this speculation is accurate, is this a religious discussion or a political discussion?  To me, given the above assumption, it is a bit of both.  It is a religious discussion because the shooting was motivated by religious beliefs.  At the same time, it is a political discussion  because the shooting was motivated by a conflict between a persons religious beliefs and the cultural, political, and moral values of the People.

What if the guy simply went insane?  In this case, is it a religious issue, a political issue, or something else entirely?  Regardless, because it happened on a US Military Base, the merits of a political discussion are valid.  Even if it had not happened on a US Military Base, it would still be applicable to Political Discussion because the insanity would be directed against the cultural, plitical, and moral values of the People... much like Charles Manson or the Unibomber, both of which have set precedence being debated in the political forum.

It is sad that censorship has played such a prevalent role in modern society with respect to religious sensitivities.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Zionism without risk of being labeled antisemitic.  One cannot discuss the negative aspects of Islam without risk of being labeled an Islamaphobe.  Such labels do nothing other than stifle healthy debate.  The sooner we learn to appreciate differing viewpoints, rather than applying labels, the sooner we can learn to live together, accepting our differences.

The Fort Hood shooting, unfortunately, provides us with an excellent case study of the gray area between politics and religion.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out as speculation is confirmed or denied.  Thoughts on this subject?




majority of the world leaders today are Luciferian and they are not even open about the fact that they incorporate it into politics

so how is religion and state separate again?

I think we're finding out first hand that this is an impossibility




sources?




I've been posting plenty of sources over the last few days but I'll just go with this Pike quote:

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

“No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation.”

—David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations

both those quotes are somewhat questionable so I will post 2 more showing that these quotes are in line with the thinking of both these individuals

"To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees – The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine.

Albert Pike(verified quote)

The true light of Lucifer cannot be seen through sorrow, through darkness, through reflection. The true light of this great being can only be recognized when one's own eyes can see with the light of the Christ, the light of the inner sun. Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into the New Age, which is the age of man's wholeness, each of us is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation, the particular doorway through which the individual must pass if he is to come fully into the presence of his light and his wholeness.

Lucifer comes to give us the final gift of wholeness. If we accept it, then he is free and we are free, that is the Luciferic Initiation. It is one that many people now, and in the days ahead, will be facing, for it is an initiation into the New Age.

David Spangler

theres many more where those 2 came from(not a particular website but from evidence concerning the Luciferian nature of the world powers today)


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11422234 - 11/09/09 10:53 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

interesting.....


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: elementswrath]
    #11422359 - 11/09/09 11:06 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

elementswrath said:
interesting.....



:lol:, my thoughts exactly!


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Poid]
    #11422832 - 11/10/09 12:05 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
it is often difficult to differentiate between politics and religion.  A gray area exists where the two subjects often overlap.


If the two subjects overlap, then isn't it appropriate to discuss the political aspects of the grey area here in the 'Political Discussion' forum?




in the vast ajority of nations/cultures the two are intertwined, even in
the US where it's alleged that church and state are separate, in this
nation it simply means state cannot get involved with religion, it
doesnt mean it cant be the other way around because church is often
getting involved in politics

religion is political


Quote:

Either way, I do not see how discussing the possible motivations about this apparently political issue is inappropriate in this forum. :shrug2:





it's not, I was stressing a point about the adherence to forum rules and
guidelines, it's pretty damned lax in this forum to encourage open
discussion, often times the discussion evolves, the clinton thread for
instance became an economic policy thread pretty rapidly, while not
specifically about clintons policies many of his policies are addressed
and just as seuss said, discussion about palestine, arabs or israel will
quickly break down to islam vs. judaeo-christian crap

as we can see from that demonstration it rapidly brings discussions to a
halt, even when a thread is allowed to live, that strict adherence
doesnt allow for much discussion


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11424186 - 11/10/09 05:42 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

> so how is religion and state separate again?

There is no 'ten commandments law' in the US.  There is no Sharia Law in the US.  Some laws are certainly based upon religious morals, but there is no single religious doctrine that is used as a basis for shaping law.


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OfflineDyingjezuz
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Seuss]
    #11424292 - 11/10/09 07:10 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

If the debate serves the pupose of enlightment you look for the ideals, if your goals is to classify and define problems, you'll do best to look for the money; where they are going.


I think there's a fear fear talk of substance being forced down by the government to keep the critisism at a metaphysical level, thus preventing the actions from the public to be too direct or personal. You can use religion to dignify your ruling but you can't attack the ruling for being religious.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Seuss]
    #11424686 - 11/10/09 10:16 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> so how is religion and state separate again?

There is no 'ten commandments law' in the US.  There is no Sharia Law in the US.  Some laws are certainly based upon religious morals, but there is no single religious doctrine that is used as a basis for shaping law.






I think that one central issue is that fervent adherents to an organized religion are easily manipulated by individuals that have political motivations.

The shooter may not have had political motivations but the individuals who influenced him the most could have manipulated him for political reasons.


Given how immoral politicians are it is laughable and unfortunate that religious types are blind to being manipulated.  I think that it is because "belief" requires a suspension of rationality.  Having "faith" means don't you dare question anything or GOD is going to whup you something fierce!


Organized religion could be viewed as a means of establishing "Divide et impera"...



Edited by Mr.Al (11/10/09 10:24 AM)


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11426563 - 11/10/09 04:06 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
religion is political


Then how on Earth can it possibly be deemed inappropriate to discuss religion's effects on global politics in this forum?



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
discussion about palestine, arabs or israel will
quickly break down to islam vs. judaeo-christian crap


If religion is political, why is a discussion that breaks down to "islam vs. judaeo-christian crap" inappropriate here?



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
as we can see from that demonstration it rapidly brings discussions to a
halt, even when a thread is allowed to live, that strict adherence
doesnt allow for much discussion


Does this always necessarily happen?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Poid]
    #11427691 - 11/10/09 07:49 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
religion is political


Then how on Earth can it possibly be deemed inappropriate to discuss religion's effects on global politics in this forum?




did you miss everything I said or something about stressing a point?


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Seuss]
    #11427835 - 11/10/09 08:09 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
In the US there is a fairly clear separation of the church and the state.






where is this separation?  [christian] god is all over our money and involved in many things patriotic.  a good majority of legislators (senate, house, etc...) are of the christian faith.


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: demiu5]
    #11427865 - 11/10/09 08:14 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

government is comprised of people, no one dictates that they all be
atheist... there's also a lot of jews in government as well


it's a conspiracy I bet


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11427890 - 11/10/09 08:18 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

i understand that, but when a significant percentage of decision-makers hold beliefs, this will influence the potential laws they vote on.  if religion is an influence on the people, then it is also an influence on their decisions and, ultimately, affects our lives through legislation


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Re: The role of religion in modern politics [Re: demiu5]
    #11427992 - 11/10/09 08:30 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

considering that atheists and agnostics are the smallest minority in the
US, it'll be difficult to replace these lawmakers without having hand
selected them


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