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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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a poll..on a nitemarish vision...
    #11418554 - 11/09/09 02:29 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

the following quote is from ayn rand ..journals of ayn rand.. may 16..1934 pp73-74 ..

Quote:

    The new conception of the State that I want to defend is the State as a means, not an end; a means for the convenience of the higher type of man. The State as the only organization. Within it — all have to remain individuals. The State, not as a slave of the great numbers, but precisely the contrary, as the individual’s defense against great numbers. To free man from the tyranny of numbers.

    The fault of liberal democracies: giving full rights to quantity (majorities), they forget the rights of quality, which are much higher rights. Prove that differences of quality not only do exist inexorably, but also should exist. The next step — democracy of superiors only. This is not possible without a very high and powerful sense of honor. This, in turn, is not possible without a set of values from which this honor is to be derived. The new set of values: supreme egoism.





(before anyone accuses me of cherry-picking..the topic of the thread is the position of the specific quotation above.. not whether or not it is representative of ayn rands' work in general)...

do you agree or disagree with rands' position in the quoted paragraphs?...explain your choice...
You may choose only one
strongly disagree...
disagree...
agree...
strongly agree...


Votes accepted from (11/09/09 02:26 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/09/09 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11418657 - 11/09/09 02:42 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

obviously i would strongly disagree with the quoted position...IMAO this sounds alot like fascism...rand may have been critical of european fascism at the time.. but based solely on that quotation.. i would have to say that whatever dispute she had with the european fascists was strictly on specifics.. she was holding out hope for america as a platform for some kind of perfect fascist dystopia which she called a "democracy of superiors"...tragically..she appears to be getting her wish...

i should also call the readers' attention to rands' bravura display of orwellian doublespeak..typical of authouritarian apologists..at the end of the second paragraph ..

Quote:

This is not possible without a very high and powerful sense of honor. This, in turn, is not possible without a set of values from which this honor is to be derived. The new set of values: supreme egoism[sic].




--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11419193 - 11/09/09 03:59 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
the following quote is from ayn rand ..journals of ayn rand.. may 16..1934 pp73-74 ..

Quote:

    The new conception of the State that I want to defend is the State as a means, not an end; a means for the convenience of the higher type of man. The State as the only organization. Within it � all have to remain individuals. The State, not as a slave of the great numbers, but precisely the contrary, as the individual�s defense against great numbers. To free man from the tyranny of numbers.

    The fault of liberal democracies: giving full rights to quantity (majorities), they forget the rights of quality, which are much higher rights. Prove that differences of quality not only do exist inexorably, but also should exist. The next step � democracy of superiors only. This is not possible without a very high and powerful sense of honor. This, in turn, is not possible without a set of values from which this honor is to be derived. The new set of values: supreme egoism.





(before anyone accuses me of cherry-picking..the topic of the thread is the position of the specific quotation above.. not whether or not it is representative of ayn rands' work in general)...





Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
obviously i would strongly disagree with the quoted position...IMAO this sounds alot like fascism...rand may have been critical of european fascism at the time.. but based solely on that quotation.. i would have to say that whatever dispute she had with the european fascists was strictly on specifics.. she was holding out hope for america as a platform for some kind of perfect fascist dystopia which she called a "democracy of superiors"...tragically..she appears to be getting her wish...

i should also call the readers' attention to rands' bravura display of orwellian doublespeak..typical of authouritarian apologists..at the end of the second paragraph ..

Quote:

This is not possible without a very high and powerful sense of honor. This, in turn, is not possible without a set of values from which this honor is to be derived. The new set of values: supreme egoism[sic].






Au contraire my sweet thing.  It is precisely anti-fascism and a protection of individual rights.

Quote:

Within it — all have to remain individuals. The State, not as a slave of the great numbers, but precisely the contrary, as the individual’s defense against great numbers. To free man from the tyranny of numbers.




We have a Bill of Rights specifically for the purpose of protecting the individual from the tyranny of the majority.


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11419586 - 11/09/09 04:59 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
We have a Bill of Rights specifically for the purpose of protecting the individual from the tyranny of the majority.





lol, the bill of rights can only do so when it's enforced, who' gonna enforce it


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11420049 - 11/09/09 06:08 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Quote:

Within it %uFFFD all have to remain individuals. The State, not as a slave of the great numbers, but precisely the contrary, as the individual%uFFFDs defense against great numbers. To free man from the tyranny of numbers.




Au contraire my sweet thing.  It is precisely anti-fascism and a protection of individual rights.

We have a Bill of Rights specifically for the purpose of protecting the individual from the tyranny of the majority.




zappa has again failed mizzerbly in yet another attempt to make a silk ear out of a sows purse.. or something like that...

to wit ..unlike ayn rand..the bill of rights does not categorize ppl into "individuals" that the state protects against other ppl that rand calls "numbers"...the mere fact that she would make such a distinction is fascist in and of itself.. but it also raises the question as to which ppl are just numbers.. and ayn rand clearly answers that question with the catchphrase "democracy of superiors".. which not even zappa can ever spin as libertarianism...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11420400 - 11/09/09 07:02 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Ayn Rand wasn't the only one afraid of a tyranny of the majority, you know.


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Re: a poll..on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11420420 - 11/09/09 07:07 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:

(before anyone accuses me of cherry-picking..the topic of the thread is the position of the specific quotation above.. not whether or not it is representative of ayn rands' work in general)...






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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11420919 - 11/09/09 08:17 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Quote:

Within it %uFFFD all have to remain individuals. The State, not as a slave of the great numbers, but precisely the contrary, as the individual%uFFFDs defense against great numbers. To free man from the tyranny of numbers.




Au contraire my sweet thing.  It is precisely anti-fascism and a protection of individual rights.

We have a Bill of Rights specifically for the purpose of protecting the individual from the tyranny of the majority.




zappa has again failed mizzerbly in yet another attempt to make a silk ear out of a sows purse.. or something like that...

to wit ..unlike ayn rand..the bill of rights does not categorize ppl into "individuals" that the state protects against other ppl that rand calls "numbers"...the mere fact that she would make such a distinction is fascist in and of itself.. but it also raises the question as to which ppl are just numbers.. and ayn rand clearly answers that question with the catchphrase "democracy of superiors".. which not even zappa can ever spin as libertarianism...




Why not?  It would be a voluntary association.


--------------------


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11420975 - 11/09/09 08:25 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Ayn Rand wasn't the only one afraid of a tyranny of the majority, you know.




any rand did not express the fear of a tyranny of the majority in the quoted passage..but rather she was advocating a totalitarian oligarchy which would only be democratic within the oligarchy...OTOH its subjects are simply "numbers" with no rights as human beings...

and judging from the poll numbers so far..fascism is very popular here too...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11420994 - 11/09/09 08:27 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

The State, not as a slave of the great numbers, but precisely the contrary, as the individual’s defense against great numbers. To free man from the tyranny of numbers




You have you be mentally incapacitated to think that this does not speak to tyranny of the majority.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11421258 - 11/09/09 09:06 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

The State, not as a slave of the great numbers, but precisely the contrary, as the individual%uFFFDs defense against great numbers. To free man from the tyranny of numbers




You have you be mentally incapacitated to think that this does not speak to tyranny of the majority.




as usual..ppl are forced to resort to name-calling to defend an indefensible fascist position...

rands' solution to the TOTM is to replace it with a tyranny of oligarchy...and thats hardly a lesser evil if you ask me...

Quote:

The State, not as a slave of the great numbers, but precisely the contrary, as the individual%uFFFDs defense against great numbers. To free man from the tyranny of numbers




i understand that as meaning that rand believes that the role of govt should be limited to serving as a hit squad for her "democracy of superiors" oligarchy...if thats not so..then why does she find it necessary to posit two kinds of people ..the few that participate in the "democracy of superiors".. and those who are mere "numbers" with no rights??...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/10/09 01:26 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11425432 - 11/10/09 01:03 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:


i understand that as meaning that rand believes that the role of govt should be limited to serving as a hit squad for her "democracy of superiors" oligarchy...if thats not so..then why does she find it necessary to posit two kinds of people ..the few that participate in the "democracy of superiors".. and those who are mere "numbers" with no rights??...




That's nice that you believe that, but there is no reasonable way to glean that from the quoted portion of the text.  What part of the text makes you draw this mistaken belief?


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11425987 - 11/10/09 02:46 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Ayn Rand wasn't the only one afraid of a tyranny of the majority, you know.




any rand did not express the fear of a tyranny of the majority in the quoted passage..but rather she was advocating a totalitarian oligarchy which would only be democratic within the oligarchy...OTOH its subjects are simply "numbers" with no rights as human beings...

and judging from the poll numbers so far..fascism is very popular here too...




How in the world was she advocating any kind of totalitarian oligarchy?

You must be such an intellectual midget not to understand what she was saying. She emphasised individual rights over majority rule. A State is necessary for the protection of ones rights, therefore she advocates a limited government for that role. What part of that is totalitarian? It is the exact antithesis of totalitarianism.

In Rand's ideal Government neither an oligarchy nor the whim of the majority could be in a position to usurp the inalienable rights of the individual to life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness.


Edited by RationalEgo (11/10/09 03:00 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11426380 - 11/10/09 03:42 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

and you must be not only an intellectual midget..but an intellectual insect.. to post that kind of response when you obviously didnt bother to read the thread post first...that rand is advocating an oligarchy is clear from the very first sentance in the quotation ..

Quote:

The new conception of the State that I want to defend is the State as a means, not an end; a means for the convenience of the higher type of man.




if there is a higher type of man..then there is a lower type of man..and rand makes it clear that the state exists solely to serve the interests of the former..which necessarily means discriminating against the latter (ie totalitarianism)...as to who falls into which category..rand answers that with her catchphrase "democracy of superiors only"..and the key word "only" connotes a very small..exclusive democracy of superiors.. aka an oligarchy...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11426449 - 11/10/09 03:51 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

How are any of those things totalitarian or fascist or oligarchic?  They aren't.

Perhaps you would be well served by actually reading her more fully.  Also reacquaint yourself with a dictionary.  I think what she is positing here is that if you don't contribute you can just fuck off.  And for anybody who can but won't I agree with her.  Fuck 'em.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11429685 - 11/11/09 12:27 AM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
How are any of those things totalitarian or fascist or oligarchic?  They aren't.




and bears dont poop in the woods either...

but im a bit curious as to how so many ppl can take a catchphrase like "democracy of superiors only" and not associate it with oligarchy and authouritarianism...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/11/09 02:44 AM)


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11431122 - 11/11/09 05:18 AM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

The new conception of the State that I want to defend is the State as a means, not an end; a means for the convenience of the higher type of man.




if there is a higher type of man..then there is a lower type of man..and rand makes it clear that the state exists solely to serve the interests of the former..which necessarily means discriminating against the latter (ie totalitarianism)...as to who falls into which category..rand answers that with her catchphrase "democracy of superiors only"..and the key word "only" connotes a very small..exclusive democracy of superiors.. aka an oligarchy...




The 'higher' type of man that Rand is refering to is the moral man, the productive man, the man with his happiness as his central purpose. That kind of man requires freedom to reach his highest potential as all men do. She advocates a State that protects ALL individual rights to life, liberty and property equally.

Rand is not refering to any type of oligarchy. She was for a complete separation of state from economy just as she was an advocate of the separation of church and state. The State could not, in Rands ideal, be partial towards any group or individual.

Democracy of 'superiors only' means that the only vote that an individual need to make is to to elect honourable representatives who are of superior moral quality so that they may be trusted for their time in office never to step outside of the bounds of an objective constitution. A form of Republican Government, not an Oligarchy is what she envisioned.

The intellectual midgetry that you are showing here is readily apparent. You are deliberately taking quotes out of context in an attempt to distort facts and misrepresent Rands views.


Edited by RationalEgo (11/11/09 05:27 AM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11431419 - 11/11/09 08:06 AM (8 years, 10 days ago)

and the intellectual insectry you are showing is even more apparent..when you try to blackwhite rands' blatantly authouritarian language into libertarianism.. and then back it up with (drumroll) more name calling...at this point..i would have better luck arguing with the proverbial dining room table...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11431483 - 11/11/09 08:35 AM (8 years, 10 days ago)

You are exhibiting here the same behavior that all Collectivists do when faced with Rand's ideas... deliberately searching for the most obscure possible musing she may have made in some private setting, then shoehorning into it the most damaging possible interpretation the English language allows (and then some!), then attempting to pass it off as "evidence" that Rand really was a "fascist" or an "oligarch" or an "elitist" or whatever.

This charge is, of course, transparently absurd. Rand left behind her a vast, VAST body of work explaining her views on ethics and politics in painstaking (many critics would say "excruciating") detail. There is no possible way an honest reader can pretend Rand was anything other than a fierce advocate of individualism. Rand wanted the influence of government kept to the smallest possible amount. She wanted to be left alone and she wanted everyone else to be left alone as well - and she meant EVERYONE! That includes homeless bums and burger flippers and slackers clerking at Kwik-E-Marts as well as CEOs and doctors and inventors. And heiresses, too, for that matter.

Your insistence that this one snippet from her private journal written long before the majority of her philosophical work can - with a lot of linguistic chicanery and twisting - be sort of somehow warped into a kind of implication that she was a closet fascist or whatever is just pathetically lame. 

Give it up.






Phred


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: poll on a nitemarish vision... [Re: Phred]
    #11431533 - 11/11/09 09:03 AM (8 years, 10 days ago)

We won't be getting rid of big government and its intrusion in our lives in any foreseeable future. If anything it will get bigger.


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