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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,439
Loc: mumuland
The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral
    #11416834 - 11/09/09 07:08 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Not only do I not believe in a soul, I find that it is in fact, in most cases immoral to do so.

All conceptions and beliefs in one's immortality as an extension of one's
existence into a world beyond this one are immoral as they contradict all known
religious doctrines of altruism.

The belief in an immortal soul grows out of an egotistical need: to secure one's individual
existence in time and space beyond one's actual, observable, biological, animal body.


Edit:

More information in two recent posts:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11410097#11410097
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11410124#11410124


Edited by Lakefingers (11/09/09 07:14 AM)


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Invisibleamuzakat
Growing mutant shrooms


Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Europe
Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11416875 - 11/09/09 07:21 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Religious doctrines of altruism are often backed up by threats about going to hell and/or building up bad karma if one doesn't follow. Equally appealing to self-interest.


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OfflineDutch-Master2890
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Registered: 08/19/09
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Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: amuzakat]
    #11416881 - 11/09/09 07:25 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

i dont believe in any religion but i think we have souls i know ive seen ghosts at least and i wasnt on any drugs


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,439
Loc: mumuland
Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: amuzakat]
    #11416882 - 11/09/09 07:26 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:

Power, even in religion, often works on most people by threatening their most basic interests:

* I'll take your life
* I'll even extend your life to an afterlife and take control of that too
* I'll give you several afterlives and make those hell


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,439
Loc: mumuland
Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Dutch-Master2890]
    #11416893 - 11/09/09 07:30 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dutch-Master2890 said:
i dont believe in any religion but i think we have souls i know ive seen ghosts at least and i wasnt on any drugs




I used to believe in flying reindeer and a fat man that lived at the North Pole who brought presents to nearly all Christian children one night a year and on that night magically glid his plump rump down 9" chimney flues -- and I wasn't on drugs or religious. It must've been true.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11416923 - 11/09/09 07:51 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Lakefingers, I don't think you actually SAW santa coming down that chimney?

I wonder where the notion of altruism comes from in the first place?


--------------------


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,439
Loc: mumuland
Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11416939 - 11/09/09 08:01 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Nor do I think he saw those ghosts. The burden of proof is not on me anyhow (Dutch-Master2890 tried to avoid it by bringing up a vaguely relevant anecdote); although he believes he did see those ghosts and has a soul, and I believe I saw Santa's feet zipping up the chimney, his sled in the sky and that I heard reindeer hooves on the roof when family members pointed them out.

Moreover, Dutch-Master2890, failed to demonstrate that he understood the basic argument and to relate it to his egotistical and altruistic beliefs.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11417003 - 11/09/09 08:34 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

do you believe that?

Im just saying, seeing an illusory figure is a bit different to when people explain tangible things, like the presence of presents or chocolate eggs, by invoking imaginary characters. In this sense you have to interpret information that only you are priveleged with, but in the case of santa and the presents, or God and the world, it is about interpreting evidence that society agrees upon.


--------------------


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,439
Loc: mumuland
Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11417097 - 11/09/09 09:07 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

>do you believe that?

What/Which?

Society also agrees upon souls and ghosts. To that, into adult age, whereas those who believe in Santa in adult age are consider flakes or deranged.


Why are you sidetracking this from the OP? Usually that's tolerable if people at least pull jokes. :lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11417277 - 11/09/09 10:14 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Not only do I not believe in a soul, I find that it is in fact, in most cases immoral to do so.

All conceptions and beliefs in one's immortality as an extension of one's
existence into a world beyond this one are immoral as they contradict all known
religious doctrines of altruism.

The belief in an immortal soul grows out of an egotistical need: to secure one's individual
existence in time and space beyond one's actual, observable, biological, animal body.


Edit:

More information in two recent posts:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11410097#11410097
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11410124#11410124




yup


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11417284 - 11/09/09 10:17 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Lakefingers, I don't think you actually SAW santa coming down that chimney?

I wonder where the notion of altruism comes from in the first place?




I think that once the belief is instilled by significant others, some children create the imaginary experience of having "seen" Santa by that tree. Some adults have never gotten past that stage imo. Lots of humans.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Icelander]
    #11421221 - 11/09/09 09:01 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Well although I think both types of beliefs are questionable, I still think there is a difference between
believing what someone tells you about objective phenomenon
and
interpreting something you see as real or illusion

but at any rate, to deal more specifically with the hypothesis in the OP, I wonder, if you deny the notion of a soul, what do you accept? Do you accept consciousness? I wonder this in order to ascertain what sort of morality you have in the first place?

I wonder how it can be immoral to base actions on something that is 'out of this world'? It seems like it is only immoral if you did something 'immoral' (in the typical sense) due to some justification that was based on this 'other world'. But if you believe in a soul, and also act in such a way that totally cares about the souls in living human bodies, it seems like you are just as moral as someone else who is similarly moral but does not believe in a soul?


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11421391 - 11/09/09 09:23 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Well I don't see any reason (besides insecurity) to believe we have a soul any more than an ant or a bacteria.

I have personal ethics that govern my actions. My ethics are based in my subjective personal desires.

I appear to have consciousness so I believe there is consciousness because I have a brain and it's a result of the functioning of my brain.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Icelander]
    #11421585 - 11/09/09 09:44 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

well it definately appears to be


--------------------


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,439
Loc: mumuland
Re: The Belief in an Immortal Soul is Immoral [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11424210 - 11/10/09 06:06 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
believing what someone tells you about objective phenomenon
and
interpreting something you see as real or illusion





Both are seen, both are fermented through social processes beyond the individual, both are made in the symbolic order and impressed on the individual who wrongly "realizes" *this is real*.

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
but at any rate, to deal more specifically with the hypothesis in the OP, I wonder, if you deny the notion of a soul, what do you accept? Do you accept consciousness? I wonder this in order to ascertain what sort of morality you have in the first place?





What do you mean what do I accept?

If you are attempting to imply that I see consciousness as a supernatural phenomenon: No, I don't. The universe as far as we can tell is physical and super-natural only in the sense that quantum phenomena can be supernatural.

As I stated in the OP, by the standards of religious morality, it is immoral to believe that you are somehow secured above other things in creation.


Edited by Lakefingers (11/10/09 06:21 AM)


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