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OfflineNoBrainNoPain
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Several jars = several mycelium substrain?
    #11416294 - 11/09/09 04:01 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Hi,

Perhaps I am over-thinking, or not understanding the basic principles of mycology, but I was wondering…

I read several times that you should not inoculate his jars with too much spore solution or LC, because it makes more substrain that compete against each other. Right?

So in the same way, when you inoculate 2 different jars, you will obtain two different families of mycelium network?

So when you spawn these 2 jars to a substrate, do these 2 different mycelium network "fight" first? Would it be more efficient not to mix several spawn jars and use only one big jar/bag to spawn?

Thanks for your lights :laugh:


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Offlinebardleyrichard
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: NoBrainNoPain]
    #11416452 - 11/09/09 04:51 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NoBrainNoPain said:
So when you spawn these 2 jars to a substrate, do these 2 different mycelium network "fight" first? Would it be more efficient not to mix several spawn jars and use only one big jar/bag to spawn?

Thanks for your lights :laugh:



That's sort of what I thought, which is why I figured it's best to inoc one jar, and g2g to all the others and just spawn from those. But please don't take this as fact, it is only what I have interpreted from readings on this site.

I'd like to hear what others think/know about this though.


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Invisibleavorg
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: bardleyrichard]
    #11416525 - 11/09/09 05:14 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

interesting question. I've never thought of it like that, makes sense though. I would second G2G.


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OfflineKanker
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: avorg]
    #11416810 - 11/09/09 07:00 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

an LC from what i gather is a genetically unique organism, as opposed to MS, where you have millions that eventually fuse.

-of the same sporeprint:
I'm not exactly sure how the genetic distribution works in spores, but i'd wager that one jar would be genetically different to another (much like a child is genetically unique to his/her siblings).

I'm not too sure on the specifics, but i don't think that addition of a jar of the same species, added to a separate jar of the same MS would be any different from a MS growth from one innoc hole fusing with another growth from a separate innoc hole. When you innoc from two different points in a jar, those two spots of growth are just as 'unique' as they would be in another jar.

I was always of the opinion that too much LC/MS can give you a moisture imbalance which can retard colonisation and invite contam.
just testing the waters here with what i've gleamed, so dont' take my advice as the bible.


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Edited by Kanker (11/09/09 07:03 AM)


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OfflineThyrax
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: Kanker]
    #11416924 - 11/09/09 07:52 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kanker said:
an LC from what i gather is a genetically unique organism, as opposed to MS, where you have millions that eventually fuse.

-of the same sporeprint:
I'm not exactly sure how the genetic distribution works in spores, but i'd wager that one jar would be genetically different to another (much like a child is genetically unique to his/her siblings).

I'm not too sure on the specifics, but i don't think that addition of a jar of the same species, added to a separate jar of the same MS would be any different from a MS growth from one innoc hole fusing with another growth from a separate innoc hole. When you innoc from two different points in a jar, those two spots of growth are just as 'unique' as they would be in another jar.

I was always of the opinion that too much LC/MS can give you a moisture imbalance which can retard colonisation and invite contam.
just testing the waters here with what i've gleamed, so dont' take my advice as the bible.




Btw ms and lc from ms is the same shit. Ms is random, and The lc is the randomness of the Multi spores inoculation!

And yes too many spore Is counter productive, not only because of the water ratio but because of the spore concentration. So don't make you own syringue too concentrate.


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: Thyrax]
    #11416963 - 11/09/09 08:14 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

You are generally accurate in your assumptions that MS leads to many different substrains that will eventually compete with each other, but like someone has said, it's no different from those substrains competing within a single jar. 

It's hard to say though, and I don't think any specifically geared experiments have been conducted in this area.  It would likely depend on how you spawn those different substrains, for example if you were to spawn one substrain to one half of a tub and the other substrain to the other half, or if you were to mix all of the substrains together.  You would think that if you mix them all together, they would initially take longer, but eventually lead to a more robust and uniform flush, since they would eventually fuse genetics and make one genetically unique organism, but at the same time, it depends on if you want to wait for that to happen.

Like the first response said, your best bet for uniform genetics is g2g, or if you have fresh fruits, cloning is a reliable option also.


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OfflineThyrax
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: libertaire]
    #11417011 - 11/09/09 08:37 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

libertaire said:
one genetically unique organism




actualy a fruit body contain many genetic since it sector when you clone it.


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: Thyrax]
    #11417333 - 11/09/09 10:35 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Hm, that's interesting.  That's really weird to think about.  So because that mushroom sectors when you put it on agar, does that mean it is multiple organisms who joined together to cooperate towards a common goal?  That's pretty crazy if that's the case.

This only leads to more confusion though, because would it be more or less efficient then to have a single organism realizing itself in a substrate, or multiple organisms who have worked together effectively in the past working together again?  Like I said, I don't know of any experiments that have been conducted in this area to determine which is better.  Perhaps I'm just overly complicating things as well, who knows.  Maybe this would get a more knowledgeable response in the advanced mycology section?


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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: libertaire]
    #11417487 - 11/09/09 11:23 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

There's a lot of info on sectoring and fruitbody cloning in Advanced already. And here in Mush Cult.
For best repeatable results, you want a pure monoculture. But a multi-genetic tissue clone is waaaay better than the random genetics of spores.

Edit - also, a multi spore LC will have multiple genetics, but generally it starts from fewer spores than you would use for a similar number of jars. So it's better than no isolation at all, but not by much. I like Grain LC for this reason, you know you have mycelium that at least can colonize grain and it's a healthy and vigorous substrain.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: Doc_T]
    #11417507 - 11/09/09 11:29 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Here's a similar thread where I answered this question last year.
RR


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OfflineBrandNewbie
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: libertaire]
    #11417524 - 11/09/09 11:34 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I've had the same issues with my last grow.

I don't grow large amounts at a time. I'm trying to get a cycle down where I have some just inoculated jars, some trays consolidating and some in fruiting conditions.

That said I usually only work with four pint jars at a time. Four pints will make two of the size trays that I use.

I tried growing out some Thai's that were traded to me and I grew some non-sporing, non-active mutations. I was told by some members here that I just got a bad deal via the luck of the draw. (Bad luck that is.)

Well, then I started thinking. If I use two of my four jars of spawn per tray AND I mad up two trays of bulk, why didn't one of my trays produce active sporulating fruits? Did I win the "suck" lottery twice!?

I currently have two more trays colonizing now. They should be ready to fruit in a week or so, (I consolidate). I'll let you know what happens.

It's a lot of work for nothing if the same results occur, BUT it will be more confusing than ever if the mushrooms produced are NOT mutants... :shrug:


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Edited by BrandNewbie (11/09/09 12:02 PM)


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OfflineBrandNewbie
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: BrandNewbie]
    #11417549 - 11/09/09 11:41 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Damned! I wish that I would have posted that BEFORE RR visited the thread...


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OfflineBreakfast Crew
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: BrandNewbie]
    #11417633 - 11/09/09 11:56 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I want to inoculate a log with 5 different strains now to see what happens.


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11417635 - 11/09/09 11:56 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Here's a similar thread where I answered this question last year.
RR



Definitely a helpful response, but I think it still leaves some things unanswered. 

First of all, you said mushroom strains don't "compete" with each other since they will always combine by way of anastomosis, yet you also said that you have noticed cases where there are noticeable morphological differences within the same substrate, which would imply that the two strains did not in fact combine via anastomosis.  If that is the case, then there are two separate organisms competing for the same nutrients, and the organism that colonizes a substrate faster will end up having more of a chance of realizing it's potential, since it has more substrate to absorb nutrients from.  That is something that is not disputed, that the more substrate you have, the larger/more plentiful fruits you will have (if those fruits genetics call for such attributes).

Another thing that is still unclear is that you said shaking the jar or mixing ms cakes into a bulk tray won't cause cause those different mycelium to join forces, yet if you clone a multispore fruit onto agar, there are multiple genetics in that fruit, since as was said, that fruit's mycelium sectors.  That would imply that there are two separate colonies of mycelium that have joined together to form a fruit body.  Is there some other explanation of that phenomenon?

I could be completely misinterpreting your reply all together, and by no means claim to have as much experience or knowledge as you, so please correct any misconceptions I may have.


Edited by libertaire (11/09/09 12:58 PM)


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OfflineNoBrainNoPain
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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11417848 - 11/09/09 12:37 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Yay, anastomosis, what a nice word :smile:

Thank you all for your inputs.

So, basically, no fight between substrains in a MS inoculated jar, neither in a bulk sub between 2 different mycelium networks from 2 different jars. The myceliums merge to become one single organism.

This hobby gets definitely more and more interesting every day  :inlove3:


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Re: Several jars = several mycelium substrain? [Re: NoBrainNoPain]
    #11417894 - 11/09/09 12:45 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

And even if you get multiple organisms in a tub, it's not really a problem. It's like having brown cows and spotted cows.


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