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 PoopIntrusion
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Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 17
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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 BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? 
#11411676 - 11/08/09 02:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm new to navigating how to track your own posts, but I don't see mine listed...
I've been studying mycology for a while now, and this site is fantastically extensive!
So, I was wondering, if somebody has produced a flush of mushrooms from a BRF cake and is getting ready to dunk again for the next flush, then could they instead break up the BRF cake into a bulk substrate? (and allow the myc to take over for another flush?)
Have their been any experiments, or even Teks like this?
In theory, couldn't myceleium just be indefinitely refreshed with a nutrient substrate? (LC seems to do this in a bad substrate)
I guess the central concern is, after producing a flush and dunking, will the myc still be able to take over something else? Or once they've begun pinning and fruiting are they too terribly impaired to take over a substrate (with considerable results)?
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kanglow
Stranger with Candy
 
Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2,647
Loc: USA 
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: PoopIntrusion]
#11411701 - 11/08/09 02:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Right under Home | Community | Message Board near the top left corner, you should see Welcome Poopintrusion
Underneath that you should see Account · Pics · Threads · Journal · Messages · [Logout]
Click on Threads and you will be able to see all threads in which you have posted.
Hope this helps!
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 dancefloordale
Research Assistant
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 2,522
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: PoopIntrusion]
#11411724 - 11/08/09 02:54 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm actually not sure of this myself and am testing the viability of doing something like this. I say go for it.
Here is what i'm up to.
As you can see I destroyed the top layer of this tray. I went ahead and ripped it all down to the same level, then applied a thin layer of new substrate material.
It's only been a few days, but the myc is starting to take over again.
I guess it is similar to to patching a casing, in a way.
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Everything posted by the user dancefloordale, aside from what is written in this here clause is completely and utterly fictitious, despite any information read (or seen), above (or below) that might lead you to believe otherwise.
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Bulk growing made easy-discussion
Bulk Growing Made Easy
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dancefloordale
Research Assistant
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 2,522
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: dancefloordale]
#11411748 - 11/08/09 02:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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To answer your other questions, mycelium cannot be used indefinitely like you suggested. And the reason is senescence.
Senescence is the reason every living thing eventually dies.
I'm gonna see if I can dig up any previous discussions/experiments covering this....
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Everything posted by the user dancefloordale, aside from what is written in this here clause is completely and utterly fictitious, despite any information read (or seen), above (or below) that might lead you to believe otherwise.
Hydra Tek - A detailed guide, for newest to the most skilled cultivators.
HCA
Bulk growing made easy-discussion
Bulk Growing Made Easy
Edited by dancefloordale (11/08/09 02:59 PM)
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Thyrax
No way
Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 1,068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: dancefloordale]
#11411774 - 11/08/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dancefloordale said:
To answer your other questions, mycelium cannot be used indefinitely like you suggested. And the reason is senescence.
Senescence is the reason every living thing eventually dies.
I'm gonna see if I can dig up any previous discussions/experiments covering this....
exactly, and myc will have used to much energie to switch from vegetative grow to fruiting to veg again. Not sure if it will work after one flush, maybe but if it do the yeild may not worth it. I know that it don't work after 3 flush lol.
But if you still want to try it, Do not dunk it.
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anakin3197
JEDI MASTER
Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 1,425
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: Thyrax]
#11411812 - 11/08/09 03:09 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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the reason that you couldnt see yours maybe because you hadnt posted yet, but now that you have, under your user name click on threads
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anakin3197
JEDI MASTER
Registered: 08/21/08
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: anakin3197]
#11411825 - 11/08/09 03:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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i dont see why it would work, its worth a try. i dont think it would have a problem, as long as you get the ratio right, so that it dont have to colonize a extreme amount of sub
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Brennus
Student of Life
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: anakin3197]
#11411861 - 11/08/09 03:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Once mycelium has begun fruiting, it loses a great deal of its vigor and colonization will be noticably slower - giving a higher chance for contamination.
After the first flush it might work. After the second or third, it's far less likely.
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anakin3197
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: Brennus]
#11411895 - 11/08/09 03:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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yes the first flush would more than likely be the only way that it would be possible.
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Thyrax
No way
Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 1,068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: anakin3197]
#11411906 - 11/08/09 03:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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your best chance of succes would be spawing into a spawn bag inside a glove box with sterile bulk sub, otherwise it may contam too easily.
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Boris
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: Thyrax]
#11411977 - 11/08/09 03:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The main issue is, ...when a cake, or spawn first comes out of the jar, its sterile (Or should be) and is suitable for spawning. After you have exposed that cake to fruiting conditions, you are exposing it to the elements. All kinds of contams fall onto exposed cakes, but they don't infest the cake because they can't gain a foothold of a 100% colonized cake. They lay and wait until the myc loses most of its strength (a couple flushes) then the myc can't fight them off as well. My point is, if you spawn a cake that has been in fruiting conditions, your just going to be mixing a bunch of contaminants around in your bulk substrate.
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PoopIntrusion
Stranger
Registered: 11/07/09
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Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: Boris]
#11412421 - 11/08/09 04:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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So because mycelium get old and dies (senescence) or loses its "energy" as somebody puts it, then they would not be able to reproduce indefinitely. OK, so that seems like an accurate answer to the question, "could myc reproduce indefinitely?" But then the question I think that still needs to be clarified is
To what extent could they reproduce by means of reintroducing substrate after producing shrooms?
I'd really like to see the scientific studies. I'm not really sure what process myc produce "energy" by, so I don't think I really understand the modes switching from mycelium growth to fruiting, and why it could not be tamed to switch back from fruiting to growing?
I mean the issue of eventual contamination is a concern, and it will definitely get the myc eventually, but lets just bracket that from this question for that reason.
I would really like to see that experiment.
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dancefloordale
Research Assistant
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 2,522
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: PoopIntrusion]
#11412517 - 11/08/09 05:04 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
So because mycelium get old and dies (senescence) or loses its "energy" as somebody puts it, then they would not be able to reproduce indefinitely. OK, so that seems like an accurate answer to the question, "could myc reproduce indefinitely?" But then the question I think that still needs to be clarified is
To what extent could they reproduce by means of reintroducing substrate after producing shrooms?
Not very well, the more flushes that have passed, the less chance there is.
Quote:
I'd really like to see the scientific studies. I'm not really sure what process myc produce "energy" by, so I don't think I really understand the modes switching from mycelium growth to fruiting, and why it could not be tamed to switch back from fruiting to growing?
I don't know of any actual studies on this, but I am sure it has been attempted, and I am trying out something similar now.
Myc gets energy just like any other living organism, from a food source. Your tub could stop producing fruits for a number of reasons. In a contained environment assuming no contaminants or other problems, it would either be due to the fact that there are are not enough nutrients left or the myc is no longer capable of reproducing(senescence).
Think about a man living in one room his entire life, and he has a set amt of food.
He may run out of food first, and die because of lack of nutrition. Lets say there is enough food though to last him his entire life. Well, he will still die because his cells can no longer reproduce, repair damage, and fight diseases effectively despite having enough food to last two lifetimes.
Switching "modes" requires cellular reorganization and consumes vast amounts of energy.
Quote:
I mean the issue of eventual contamination is a concern, and it will definitely get the myc eventually, but lets just bracket that from this question for that reason.
Done.
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Everything posted by the user dancefloordale, aside from what is written in this here clause is completely and utterly fictitious, despite any information read (or seen), above (or below) that might lead you to believe otherwise.
Hydra Tek - A detailed guide, for newest to the most skilled cultivators.
HCA
Bulk growing made easy-discussion
Bulk Growing Made Easy
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PoopIntrusion
Stranger
Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 17
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: dancefloordale]
#11412707 - 11/08/09 05:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dancefloordale said:
Think about a man living in one room his entire life, and he has a set amt of food.
He may run out of food first, and die because of lack of nutrition. Lets say there is enough food though to last him his entire life. Well, he will still die because his cells can no longer reproduce, repair damage, and fight diseases effectively despite having enough food to last two lifetimes.
Switching "modes" requires cellular reorganization and consumes vast amounts of energy.
Hey, thanks for the prompt response. There are still some things that I am wondering about.
OK, but I'm not sure if your metaphor is accurate, because I don't understand the common process behind it. It seems like the consensus is saying that mycelium are like human cells where as I thought they would be more like human beings. I was thinking that like human beings the reproduction of mycelium is indefinite, because the offspring have no limit to the amount of offspring that can have offspring. But maybe that is more akin to the fruiting and release of spores. In any case, I don't really understand why or how senescence happens, and if the the newly reproduced mycelium are on the same clock as the original parent mycelium (or the spore). I don't think this has been clarified.
I guess I will start researching senescence, but anyone who can answer this question, or who has performed this experiment HOLLA!
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dancefloordale
Research Assistant
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 2,522
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Re: BRF cake to bulk substrate after first flush, possibilities? [Re: PoopIntrusion]
#11412764 - 11/08/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The offspring of mycelium are the spores. The mycelium goes through different stages, much like an insect has it's stages of growth, you know, with larva, pupa, adult forms....
Senescence is cell death. Basically, the cell deteriorates enough that it can no longer support repair any damage that may have occurred or reproduce.
When too many cells fail, the whole organisms fails.
Fresh spores provide a fresh start and youthful vigor. I have had quart jars colonize from MS in 4 days with fresh spores. Like any young human or animal, you see rapid growth and development at first while everything is fresh and able to adapt, then as they age everything starts to deteriorate.
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Everything posted by the user dancefloordale, aside from what is written in this here clause is completely and utterly fictitious, despite any information read (or seen), above (or below) that might lead you to believe otherwise.
Hydra Tek - A detailed guide, for newest to the most skilled cultivators.
HCA
Bulk growing made easy-discussion
Bulk Growing Made Easy
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