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OfflineBeTheFlowers
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Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion?
    #11409843 - 11/08/09 09:43 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

As this is my first post a brief introduction seems in order.
I have been interested in Psychedelics since the early 90 and took my fair share of LSD and Mushrooms (here on referred to as Psilocybin or Psilo) in low, moderate and high doses. From  the mid to late 90's, though not any more. The sum result of my experiences are an expanded view of the cosmos and myself. I would equate the personal life value of this to understanding a  fundamental scientific principle and its implications on the physical world.  Experiencing a new form of art or music for the first time and it's impact on the viewer. It changes you, opens you up to a new level of reality.  Wait one minuet, can we really call what is experienced on psychedelics a “layer” of reality.

This brings me to my topic of debate. Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? 
Instinctively, and for the sake of “rational” thought, one  wants to say it's all a delusion, created by the chemical-brain interaction.
However, it seems a point of observation that on low doses of  LSD/Psilo one does detect patterns and  changes in the environment that largely go undetected by sober observers.  This statement is supported by several studies, mostly from the 60's, but more recent work is being published too (see bottom of post for a few ref.).  Furthermore,  my own Anecdotally observations support  enhanced pattern detection. Then again, I often saw patterns  on plain surfaces and surely they were/are not real. 

      So, just how much, and what part, of what is experienced, not just seen, on LSD/Psilo, if any, is a more accurate interpretation of reality over sober experience.
(sorry that is a serious abuse of ,'s but “grammar it aint my strong suite”)

      So what do you guys think?  Anecdotally?  Any studies you know of that shoot all this down?


Ref:
It is demonstrated in double-blind conditions that Psilocybin significantly changes an objective measure of after-image perception and that the occurrence of these changes is highly correlated with reports of altered visual experience. A hypothesis of how this effect and the findings of others can be explained on the basis of decreased inhibitory function in visual mechanisms involved in the perception of color and detail is presented with the caution that other explanations are possible.
Martin H. Keeler1

These results are interpreted as indicating that stimuli which evoke subjective color phenomena, or even those not usually associated with visual phenomena, are enhanced by psychotomimetics. On the other hand, the usual perception of color, as judged by hue discrimination, may actually be slightly decreased.
Alan M. Hartman1, 2 and Leo E. Hollister1

Experimental Studies in the Effects of Psilocybin on Binocular Depth Inversion, Binocular Rivalry, Neuropsychology and Synaesthesias
Investigators: Torsten Passie M.D., M.A.; Jürgen Seifert M.D., Udo Schneider M.D., Hinderk M. Emrich M.D., Ph.D.


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Offlinesolstice
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: BeTheFlowers]
    #11409887 - 11/08/09 10:01 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

First of all I think it is important to approach LSD and Psilocybin separataly here. As you probably know, psilocybin is a tryptamine while LSD is not. Tryptamines are part of the normal brain chemistry, LSD is not, so we cannot compare them when trying to determine if their effects have concrete value or not.

This simple fact, to me, suggests that psilocybin has the upper hand over lSD.

Quote:

Instinctively, and for the sake of “rational” thought, one  wants to say it's all a delusion, created by the chemical-brain interaction.




This is quite true, but it cannot be hold against the effects generated by psychedelic substances, especially tryptamines because, as I have said previously, tryptamines are part of the normal brain chemistry, serotonin being one. And so, if we are to dismiss the psychedelic world view because it is chemicaly influenced, we might as well dismiss the " regular ' world view as well because it is also made up of chemicals. Tryptamines being the link between everyday brainchemistry and psychedelic brainchemistry.


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Man woke up in a world he did not understand and that is why he tries to interpret it - Carl Jung


Edited by solstice (11/08/09 10:04 AM)


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: solstice]
    #11409922 - 11/08/09 10:15 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

I really dont think you could say shrooms show reality and LSD does not.

They either both do or dont.

But I think the word reality is awkward.

The brain creates the reality you are in. When it gets deeper, on psychedelics for example, it becomes a reality that cannot be reconciled with the other people's reality.
So we dont call it reality.

But it still is reality...

Because all there really is, is your conscious experience right now, and everything else is a concept that you are invoking. Conceptual realities


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OfflineBeTheFlowers
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11409983 - 11/08/09 10:36 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Thats a fair question. Shall we try, for the sake of the argument, to call it that which continues to exist in the absence of the subjective  observer. For example, in a study showing low dose Psilo gave people a more accurate interpretation of the reality that two lines were or were not parallel. Reality is (in this context) the fact that the lines are or are not parallel in the absence of the test subject.


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They are just ordinary entities, let's not get all carried away.


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Offlinesolstice
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: BeTheFlowers]
    #11409997 - 11/08/09 10:41 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

I really dont think you could say shrooms show reality and LSD does not.

They either both do or dont.





I don't get it. Psilocybin is a tryptamine, tryptamines are an integral part of human metabolism, lysergic acid is not. In my opinion, we cannot put them " on par " with each other in the optic of this topic, namely, if the effects they generate on one's perception are legitimate. Tryptamines are bound to be closer to the " natural " way of perceiving things.


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Man woke up in a world he did not understand and that is why he tries to interpret it - Carl Jung


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OfflineBeTheFlowers
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: solstice]
    #11410054 - 11/08/09 10:59 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

But why does “natural way”  imply legitimate. I'm not sure I see the connection. Looking into a microscope is not a “natural way” of looking at things, I would hardly say the image created was not legitimate.


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Band of Gypsys said:
They are just ordinary entities, let's not get all carried away.


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: solstice]
    #11410070 - 11/08/09 11:03 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Well you can certainly have delusions on them if your inexperienced or having a bad trip. Bad trips, which dont much happen with anybody i know and usually if trips go bad people can always bring themselves back and have a good trip, are usually when one is on a good does of either shrooms or lsd and then there environment turns out to be the wrong place. happened to me on 3 grams (1 fat mushrooms) of penis envy. It was a really strong trip but thats not the sole reason of why I had a bad trip at one point of it it was because of some kid i was tripping with that a didint know and he turned out to be a fucking asshole. I did become quite delusional with paranoia (perhaps sometime ill post the whole trip on shroomery, looking back on it its funny) but that was because of of my setting. Good trips tend to be of vast introspection and gaining a deeper understanding of reality that often makes a lot of sense. Conclusion good trips can expand reality but if they go bad because of something people often get paraoid and delusional.


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Offlinegoodloco
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11410087 - 11/08/09 11:09 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

hmm interesting thread.

I also have some LSD experience and it showed me things about life cycle, for instance.
But I stopped taking it.

LSD is not just a substance to get trippy, stoned etc.

I believe same as Hoffman, it's an important medicament, or also catalyst substance. PPL should not just smash more and more hits to have some kind of weirdness in their life and trippy effects.

It's a pity they closed the main laboratory but maybe for reasons (too many teens with no appreciate background). I am not defending that argument but maybe that is the reason. They must have known of it quite for a long while...


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Offlinesolstice
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: BeTheFlowers]
    #11410101 - 11/08/09 11:14 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

BeTheFlowers said:
But why does �natural way�  imply legitimate. I'm not sure I see the connection. Looking into a microscope is not a �natural way� of looking at things, I would hardly say the image created was not legitimate.




Why does " natural way " implies legitimate? Maybe legitimate is not the right word here... Let's say it is... endogenous! Which means that it is produced but also used by the body. Wouldn't such an hallucinogen generate a more natural perception than one who isn't?

It's the case with tryptamines. Serotonin is a tryptamine and serotonin is one of three major neuro-transmitters found in our brains. Psilocybin is also a tryptamine, lysergic acid is not. So it seems pretty logical that tryptamines would generate a perception similar to what our brains are devised to generate compared to any other hallucinogens which are not endogenous.


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Man woke up in a world he did not understand and that is why he tries to interpret it - Carl Jung


Edited by solstice (11/08/09 11:17 AM)


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: solstice]
    #11410201 - 11/08/09 11:41 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

There's no talented chemists in my country so I've only tried mushrooms. I think they do both:  the side effects;  visual fx & feeling dreamy put you further from reality while the thoughts you think tripping are the thoughts you would think (rational) if it wasn't for jungle/savannah survival psychological predispositions.
Being rational in certain ways is not always good for survival, the brain is programmed to be 'on the job' in the jungle or whatever rather than thinking those thoughts.


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: BeTheFlowers]
    #12282920 - 03/27/10 03:20 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Language is meaningless to explain the world in which we live. Everything just is, there is no other explanation. "Reality" on mushrooms is a reality whether it's a delusional one or not. It is different yes, but regardless it is still there and you can feel, hear, see, touch, and smell it. Reality is a very subjective experience and if you really think about it...were all delusional.


"Example:" Did you ever think about how delusional owning a pet is? Dwell on that thought for a bit.

Also It's very strange how we are the only species that can never be satisfied with what we have right in front of us. Humans are fucked up.


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OfflineMiHKAL
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: Mattm]
    #12283143 - 03/27/10 03:55 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Psychedelics produce "altered states of consciousness". They allow you to perceive things differently than you normally would. If you want to call a different state of consciousness a "deeper reality", go ahead. It really doesn't matter.


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OfflineNlightNme
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: MiHKAL]
    #12284090 - 03/27/10 07:00 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Reality, as used in this thread, is just an illusion anyways. All matter is just an illusion. Nothing is real but consciousness. And EVERYTHING is consciousness. E = MC^2. E of our universe is God.

Dunno if that makes any sense. I either explain it that concisely or write a book about it... and I'm lazy.

Don't be fooled by your nervous system - not even your brain is real, its all an illusion.


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: NlightNme]
    #12284928 - 03/27/10 10:03 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I would say that reality is always reality no matter what you are on, it's just an alteration of what you perceive to be your normal reality.

That being said, there is a lot we don't know about the brain and its capabilities. We live in a very subjective society because there is so much unknown. I think, based on my experience, that things like LSD, Psilocybin, or even MDMA are all instances of things that allow us to unlock our brain and think differently than we are normally capable of doing.

In the future, what if someone synthesizes a chemical like LSD, that makes you think like LSD for the rest of your life without the visual effects. It seems ridiculous right now, but the point is that reality as we experience it off drugs, really isn't that real, it's very fake. I think that you will find that, unless you are a very real person in real life, that shrooms and acid simply break away a lot of the fakeness, making your trip seem more "real" because it allows you to think through things that you otherwise wouldn't.


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: Mattm]
    #12284967 - 03/27/10 10:10 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mattm said:
Language is meaningless to explain the world in which we live. Everything just is, there is no other explanation. "Reality" on mushrooms is a reality whether it's a delusional one or not. It is different yes, but regardless it is still there and you can feel, hear, see, touch, and smell it. Reality is a very subjective experience and if you really think about it...were all delusional.


"Example:" Did you ever think about how delusional owning a pet is? Dwell on that thought for a bit.

Also It's very strange how we are the only species that can never be satisfied with what we have right in front of us. Humans are fucked up.




I'm on the same level you are. Have crossed paths with all those points you've made, one of my biggest things is how language perpetuates problems due to it's inability to accurately encase the essence of a thought.


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: d1spatch]
    #12285312 - 03/27/10 11:41 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Not to mention despite the fact that our linguistics fall way short of real expression as you say, our vocabulary has gotten so much worse over the past 100 years even :facepalm:


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: NlightNme]
    #12285522 - 03/28/10 12:42 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

NlightNme said:
Not to mention despite the fact that our linguistics fall way short of real expression as you say, our vocabulary has gotten so much worse over the past 100 years even :facepalm:





Yep, I almost added that to my post that the best thing you can do to help counter that is to really expand your vocabulary, unfortunately it is so often contingent on others. You need to find people who are on your level, people you can bond with and understand and be real with.


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OfflineThirdEye4103
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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: d1spatch]
    #12285669 - 03/28/10 01:23 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I believe it's a wonderful delusion. It just makes you aware of the little things you just wouldn't realize because people just don't stop and think that deeply. Let's say you have a NDE (near death experience) from eating a pioson, it may be a learning experience and make you have much respect for life. But is that pioson making you See a deeper reality? Also LSD and 4 ho dmt (psilocybin) effects the serotonin and replaces it. Both of these psyches look just like a serotonin molecule and mimics it's effects. Schizophenics have very high levels of seretonin in their brain making them hear vioces and see people who were not there, depending on level of schizophrenia. But we label these schizos as unable to live civilized in our society. So I believed for a long time I just saw more than there is to reality with psyches, considering we only use 10 % of our brain power. I believed it made you connected with the world as one. But now I have come to the realization that it just makes you aware of what you don't notice, because you don't just think like that. It gives you a new perception.  Like the connection to the world thing, you are always connected to the world as one. Energy can not be destroyed and when you die you energy is still going to be here and always will. But you don't realize that your this connected already. It just gives you a perception at a different wavelegth then you normaly think at. It just depends on ow you take it. It just may be a wonderdul delusion, if it is, it's the most beautiful, self learning, life changing experience. I love it and it loves me.


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: d1spatch]
    #12285682 - 03/28/10 01:29 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

My take on this is, very briefly, that the 'delics, and here, I must insist that both LSD and psilocybin are doing largely the same things, regardless their origin, and that this "thing" they are doing is akin to removing some mental filtering.  It has been noted that much of the function of our brain is a sort of reducing valve.  In other words, the brain selects what to pay attention to, to aid in killing the antelope, or finishing the taxes, or what have you.  The 'delics allow the user to temporarily experience reality with these filters impaired, thus input that normally is screened out, is on display in all its magnificent wonder.  And also, that it would not be desirable to try to live in this unfiltered world all the time!

dip


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Re: Perception on LSD/Psilocybin : A deeper reality or wonderful delusion? [Re: dip]
    #12285711 - 03/28/10 01:35 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

^^^ great advice and the truth!!


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