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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
#11403371 - 11/07/09 09:38 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Existence is the primary, not conciousness.
That's how it appears to me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,094
Loc: Boston
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: deCypher]
#11403375 - 11/07/09 09:39 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: RationalEgo, if you don't mind my asking, have you ever experienced ego death?
No, I have never put a shotgun to my head and pulled the trigger.
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Ahimsa
µdose



Registered: 01/11/07
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
#11403378 - 11/07/09 09:40 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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RationalEgo said:
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Ahimsa said:
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I agree that the eternal and unchanging attributes do not exist, but entities are independently existing and it is a stupid assertion to say that they are not.
Impossible. If only entities with essences exist, then there is no non-existence, nor can anything change.
How does it follow that attributes would be unchangeable? That's nonsense. Darwinian evolution anyone?
Entities cannot exist independently because that means they are non-causal and non-conditioned. If they are causal and conditioned then they exist dependently.
Unchangeable attributes would prevent anything from changing at all.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
#11403380 - 11/07/09 09:41 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
deCypher said: RationalEgo, if you don't mind my asking, have you ever experienced ego death?
No, I have never put a shotgun to my head and pulled the trigger.
I'm not talking about physical death. I'm talking about the dissolution of your sense of boundaries of self, where any concept of 'I' disappears and Oneness with everything is felt. It's a unique state because all conceptualization and entity formation from the mind ceases.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
#11403381 - 11/07/09 09:41 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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the ego is not the culmination of one's entire being
it's a very small fragment that unfortunately gets too much attention
it especially has nothing to do with the body
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,094
Loc: Boston
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: deCypher]
#11403421 - 11/07/09 09:49 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Entities cannot exist independently because that means they are non-causal and non-conditioned.
Entities are dependent upon existence as a primary, in that sense yes, I agree.
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deCypher said: I'm not talking about physical death. I'm talking about the dissolution of your sense of boundaries of self, where any concept of 'I' disappears and Oneness with everything is felt. It's a unique state because all conceptualization and entity formation from the mind ceases.
That would be tantamount to putting a metaphorical shotgun to my conciousness and pulling the trigger. I do not seek such an experience.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
#11403469 - 11/07/09 09:58 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
deCypher said: I'm not talking about physical death. I'm talking about the dissolution of your sense of boundaries of self, where any concept of 'I' disappears and Oneness with everything is felt. It's a unique state because all conceptualization and entity formation from the mind ceases.
That would be tantamount to putting a metaphorical shotgun to my conciousness and pulling the trigger. I do not seek such an experience.
'Tis a shame. Many a psychonaut has experienced it and is now no worse for wear; personally I find that the more perspectives I witness the better I understand things. Any trepidation at the thought of brainwashing one's self into a monist mystic surely can be alleviated by a firm grasp of analytic philosophy and a few re-readings of Ayn Rand, no?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,094
Loc: Boston
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: deCypher]
#11403500 - 11/07/09 10:04 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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The achievement of self-esteem is a primary for my life, not the destruction of its base. Concept formation is an essential human attribute and one should never sacrifice it for pseudo-spiritual 'ego-death' experiences induced by psychedelic drugs.
In all my years of drug experimentation never have I had an experience I would describe as 'ego-death'. Never would I want to either.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: deCypher]
#11403517 - 11/07/09 10:05 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think ego death is even remotely possible for a living being.
However, to paraphrase Don Juan. The ego is a guardian that turns into a guard. The ego can be made more skillful and healthy and thus not intruding into areas where it isn't needed. Thus imo the psychedelics push the ego out of the way for a moment and what is experienced is a natural state of the brain that is a natural part of our experience on earth.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/07/09 10:06 AM)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
#11403577 - 11/07/09 10:14 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said: The achievement of self-esteem is a primary for my life, not the destruction of its base.
Funny, usually I find experiences of ego loss only end up boosting my self-confidence and zest for life.
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RationalEgo said: Concept formation is an essential human attribute and one should never sacrifice it for pseudo-spiritual 'ego-death' experiences induced by psychedelic drugs.
The inability to form concepts and differentiate between undifferentiated reality is only temporary, let me assure you. I also wouldn't dismiss entheogenic experiences as pseudo-spiritual; mystical experiences can be found by ingesting a chemical just as it can be found through meditation or prayer.
Quote:
RationalEgo said: In all my years of drug experimentation never have I had an experience I would describe as 'ego-death'. Never would I want to either.
I'm sorry. In my estimation you're missing out on one of the best parts of psychedelics.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Icelander]
#11403583 - 11/07/09 10:16 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I don't think ego death is even remotely possible for a living being.
Ego death as I defined it is perfectly possible. Perhaps death isn't the right word though, as this implies permanent dissolution of the ego. Ego loss might be a better term.
Quote:
Icelander said: However, to paraphrase Don Juan. The ego is a guardian that turns into a guard. The ego can be made more skillful and healthy and thus not intruding into areas where it isn't needed. Thus imo the psychedelics push the ego out of the way for a moment and what is experienced is a natural state of the brain that is a natural part of our experience on earth.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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