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 dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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 . 
#11403484 - 11/07/09 10:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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 fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11403606 - 11/07/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The scripture doesn't say anything about a redeemer for angles. God is not under any obligation to show forgiveness, even though we read He is full of mercy. Most humans are vessels of wrath fitted to be destroyed while others are vessels of mercy. Both serve a purpose, one to demonstrate God's righteous judgment and justness, while the other demonstrates God's love. The end of both is the glory of God. All things exist so that God may be glorified in all that He is.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,122
Loc: Boston
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11403616 - 11/07/09 10:20 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
The scripture doesn't say anything about a redeemer for angles. God is not under any obligation to show forgiveness, even though we read He is full of mercy. Most humans are vessels of wrath fitted to be destroyed while others are vessels of mercy. Both serve a purpose, one to demonstrate God's righteous judgment and justness, while the other demonstrates God's love. The end of both is the glory of God. All things exist so that God may be glorified in all that He is.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11403619 - 11/07/09 10:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cause there god is a jealous god. 
He can't handle that one of his offspring is an upstart. He's petty shallow and envious. I mean he would be if he existed.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trip forever
Stranger
Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 5,873
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Icelander]
#11403628 - 11/07/09 10:22 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's what I don't get about Christianity. Some huge hypocrites in that group. Then again I'm not saying all are.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11403641 - 11/07/09 10:24 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
The scripture doesn't say anything about a redeemer for angles. God is not under any obligation to show forgiveness, even though we read He is full of mercy. Most humans are vessels of wrath fitted to be destroyed while others are vessels of mercy. Both serve a purpose, one to demonstrate God's righteous judgment and justness, while the other demonstrates God's love. The end of both is the glory of God. All things exist so that God may be glorified in all that He is.
hey fivepointer, glad to have ya back.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11403654 - 11/07/09 10:26 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
The scripture doesn't say anything about a redeemer for angles. God is not under any obligation to show forgiveness, even though we read He is full of mercy. Most humans are vessels of wrath fitted to be destroyed while others are vessels of mercy. Both serve a purpose, one to demonstrate God's righteous judgment and justness, while the other demonstrates God's love. The end of both is the glory of God. All things exist so that God may be glorified in all that He is.
how do people enter heaven or become accepted by god and not go to hell? is there anything they must do or say?
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,122
Loc: Boston
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11403667 - 11/07/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
The scripture doesn't say anything about a redeemer for angles. God is not under any obligation to show forgiveness, even though we read He is full of mercy. Most humans are vessels of wrath fitted to be destroyed while others are vessels of mercy. Both serve a purpose, one to demonstrate God's righteous judgment and justness, while the other demonstrates God's love. The end of both is the glory of God. All things exist so that God may be glorified in all that He is.
So God is apparently a celestial fascist not unlike Hitler? That is quite disturbing to think that people believe in a celestial dictatorship that one cannot even escape even after death. 
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TheBalance
Boo! Duh.
Registered: 06/06/09
Posts: 520
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11403677 - 11/07/09 10:29 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
is there anything they must do or say?
Must not shatter
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: TheBalance]
#11403690 - 11/07/09 10:30 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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oh noes
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11403698 - 11/07/09 10:31 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
If your "God" is almighty and forgiving - why won't he forgive satan?
Im not a Christian, but I was raised one and I was taught he did forgive satan.
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Band of Gypsys
Stranger
Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains on the Moon
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11403707 - 11/07/09 10:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
God is not under any obligation to show forgiveness, even though we read He is full of mercy.
In the full of mercy clause, subsection 2 of the angels contract clearly states that God is under no obligation to show forgiveness.
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S o m e T e x t
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11403736 - 11/07/09 10:35 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The scripture doesn't say anything about a redeemer for angles.
The Bible is not big on geometry.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11403804 - 11/07/09 10:46 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:
how do people enter heaven or become accepted by god and not go to hell? is there anything they must do or say?
Most people think that if they do something, like say a "sinner's prayer", repent, get baptized, become "good", or "dedicate themselves" that this will fulfill some obligation and make themselves acceptable with God. It is a conditional formula, however it is totally false.
Sinners have no "buying power" with God. They can not meet a condition since they are corrupted in the deepest levels of who they are. Only God can make someone who has no redeeming value acceptable to Himself. God has elected from before the foundation of the world all those that will inherit salvation. The election is not because He foresees someone having merit, sinners have no merit, period. Despite this (sinners having no value) He saves a few to the praise of the glory of His grace. Jesus redeemed His people from their sins, all those given to Him by the Father.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: RationalEgo]
#11403843 - 11/07/09 10:53 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
The scripture doesn't say anything about a redeemer for angles. God is not under any obligation to show forgiveness, even though we read He is full of mercy. Most humans are vessels of wrath fitted to be destroyed while others are vessels of mercy. Both serve a purpose, one to demonstrate God's righteous judgment and justness, while the other demonstrates God's love. The end of both is the glory of God. All things exist so that God may be glorified in all that He is.
So God is apparently a celestial fascist not unlike Hitler? That is quite disturbing to think that people believe in a celestial dictatorship that one cannot even escape even after death.
God is always perfectly just and good, it is man who is wicked and unjust. Don't place the blame on God.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11403865 - 11/07/09 10:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I heard that god got into the porn business lately... he's having gay orgies with Jesus and Allah and all the little angels. 
How does that make you feel, fivepointer? 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11403888 - 11/07/09 11:00 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
deranger said:
how do people enter heaven or become accepted by god and not go to hell? is there anything they must do or say?
Most people think that if they do something, like say a "sinner's prayer", repent, get baptized, become "good", or "dedicate themselves" that this will fulfill some obligation and make themselves acceptable with God. It is a conditional formula, however it is totally false.
Sinners have no "buying power" with God. They can not meet a condition since they are corrupted in the deepest levels of who they are. Only God can make someone who has no redeeming value acceptable to Himself. God has elected from before the foundation of the world all those that will inherit salvation. The election is not because He foresees someone having merit, sinners have no merit, period. Despite this (sinners having no value) He saves a few to the praise of the glory of His grace. Jesus redeemed His people from their sins, all those given to Him by the Father.
i recall in a debate we had a while back where you said all babies who die go to hell because they cannot accept jesus as lord and savior, or however that saying goes. since babies cannot talk nor consciously accept any such thing, you stated they burn in hell for eternity. do you still believe this to be true?
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11403960 - 11/07/09 11:09 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
deranger said:
how do people enter heaven or become accepted by god and not go to hell? is there anything they must do or say?
Most people think that if they do something, like say a "sinner's prayer", repent, get baptized, become "good", or "dedicate themselves" that this will fulfill some obligation and make themselves acceptable with God. It is a conditional formula, however it is totally false.
Sinners have no "buying power" with God. They can not meet a condition since they are corrupted in the deepest levels of who they are. Only God can make someone who has no redeeming value acceptable to Himself. God has elected from before the foundation of the world all those that will inherit salvation. The election is not because He foresees someone having merit, sinners have no merit, period. Despite this (sinners having no value) He saves a few to the praise of the glory of His grace. Jesus redeemed His people from their sins, all those given to Him by the Father.
i recall in a debate we had a while back where you said all babies who die go to hell because they cannot accept jesus as lord and savior, or however that saying goes. since babies cannot talk nor consciously accept any such thing, you stated they burn in hell for eternity. do you still believe this to be true?
Actually you have my position wrong. No one is saved because they "accept". They are saved because they are elect and in time are brought to gospel conversion and belief of the truth. No where in scripture does it state that people who are not converted are saved. All the human race (babies included) are born guilty by imputation. Those who will be saved are preserved to the point of conversion. Death before conversion is the evidence of reprobation (God's rejection).
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,122
Loc: Boston
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11403988 - 11/07/09 11:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
All the human race (babies included) are born guilty by imputation. Those who will be saved are preserved to the point of conversion. Death before conversion is the evidence of reprobation (God's rejection).
This is an example to all of just how sick a philosophy Christianity is. If there is one thing that reasonable people really need to fight against, it is religion.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404017 - 11/07/09 11:16 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Actually you have my position wrong. No one is saved because they "accept". They are saved because they are elect and in time are brought to gospel conversion and belief of the truth. No where in scripture does it state that people who are not converted are saved. All the human race (babies included) are born guilty by imputation. Those who will be saved are preserved to the point of conversion. Death before conversion is the evidence of reprobation (God's rejection).
can you give me a straight forward answer this time instead of going off on a religious tangent?
do (some, doesn't have to be all) babies burn in hell for eternity?
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11404043 - 11/07/09 11:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I already answered your question.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404058 - 11/07/09 11:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok then I take that as a yes.
That sounds pretty evil to me. Sounds like you've been deceived, and that what you think is God is actually Satan.
Anyways, does god create all people?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11404062 - 11/07/09 11:22 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Read the Book of Job. Satan is an agent of God.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Silversoul]
#11404098 - 11/07/09 11:26 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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But we like to play like we don't like each other. It fools the little people into thinking somebody up here gives a fuck. As gods it's our job to toy with mere mortals.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11404156 - 11/07/09 11:34 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:
Anyways, does god create all people?
still waiting on the answer fivepointer
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: RationalEgo]
#11404162 - 11/07/09 11:34 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
All the human race (babies included) are born guilty by imputation. Those who will be saved are preserved to the point of conversion. Death before conversion is the evidence of reprobation (God's rejection).
This is an example to all of just how sick a philosophy fundamentalist Christianity is.
fixed
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,122
Loc: Boston
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deCypher]
#11404175 - 11/07/09 11:36 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
All the human race (babies included) are born guilty by imputation. Those who will be saved are preserved to the point of conversion. Death before conversion is the evidence of reprobation (God's rejection).
This is an example to all of just how sick a philosophy fundamentalist Christianity is.
fixed
Nope. So called 'moderates' just don't follow Christianity, simple as that. The text is pretty crystal clear on Gods holy words. It's a 'fundamentalist' religion.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deCypher]
#11404185 - 11/07/09 11:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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im getting interested in religious views that embrace destruction in teh world. The kabbalah and Hinduism both come to my mind at the moment. The Kabbalah, one aspect of God that acts through us is judgement, severence, and strength. In Hindu, there is Shiva.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11404186 - 11/07/09 11:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:
Quote:
deranger said:
Anyways, does god create all people?
still waiting on the answer fivepointer
Yes. In natural procreation from Adam.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: RationalEgo]
#11404191 - 11/07/09 11:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Nope. So called 'moderates' just don't follow Christianity, simple as that. The text is pretty crystal clear on Gods holy words. It's a 'fundamentalist' religion.
Debatable. Both Protestants, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox believers, and Gnostic Christians will tell you that the other groups don't follow Christianity... who do you believe? At any rate I find dogmatic versions of Christianity (namely fundamentalism) to be much more destructive than non-dogmatic versions.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,122
Loc: Boston
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Noteworthy]
#11404197 - 11/07/09 11:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
im getting interested in religious views that embrace destruction in teh world. The kabbalah and Hinduism both come to my mind at the moment. The Kabbalah, one aspect of God that acts through us is judgement, severence, and strength. In Hindu, there is Shiva.
Don't get too interested. I might have to remove my support for your moderation. 
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: RationalEgo]
#11404212 - 11/07/09 11:40 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am interested in all religions and human beliefs but this element is particularly special... we live in a strange society geared only towards life and growth in this sick grotesque way that is equal to death. Looking at these cultures may help to understand how the growth obsession can be stopped by seeing how ancient peoples dealt with the concepts of destruction.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404220 - 11/07/09 11:41 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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if god creates all people, why would he create them just to have them end up in hell for eternity?
you said this before:
Quote:
All the human race (babies included) are born guilty by imputation.
what kind of god would create everyone "guilty by imputation"? this doesn't sound like a kind and compassionate god to me. it sound more like the works of satan.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404228 - 11/07/09 11:42 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't consider myself "fundamentalist". I would be considered "sovereign grace", holding to the five TULIP points, baptism for believers only.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Noteworthy]
#11404231 - 11/07/09 11:42 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
im getting interested in religious views that embrace destruction in teh world.
Look into the Thuggees.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,122
Loc: Boston
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Noteworthy]
#11404234 - 11/07/09 11:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Looking at these cultures may help to understand how the growth obsession can be stopped by seeing how ancient peoples dealt with the concepts of destruction.
They generally dealt with the concept of destruction through enslaving peoples bodies and minds and occasionally destroying large amount of their populous. Still interested?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404246 - 11/07/09 11:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
I don't consider myself "fundamentalist". I would be considered "sovereign grace", holding to the five TULIP points, baptism for believers only.
If you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, then aren't you a fundamentalist by definition?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deCypher]
#11404252 - 11/07/09 11:45 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Right, some are just irrational but in a nice way.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11404263 - 11/07/09 11:46 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:
if god creates all people, why would he create them just to have them end up in hell for eternity?
you said this before:
Quote:
All the human race (babies included) are born guilty by imputation.
what kind of god would create everyone "guilty by imputation"? this doesn't sound like a kind and compassionate god to me. it sound more like the works of satan.
Read Romans 5 for imputation and Romans 9 for election and reprobation.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: RationalEgo]
#11404305 - 11/07/09 11:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
im getting interested in religious views that embrace destruction in teh world. The kabbalah and Hinduism both come to my mind at the moment. The Kabbalah, one aspect of God that acts through us is judgement, severence, and strength. In Hindu, there is Shiva.
Don't get too interested. I might have to remove my support for your moderation.
I'm sure he'll be crushed.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deCypher]
#11404321 - 11/07/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
I don't consider myself "fundamentalist". I would be considered "sovereign grace", holding to the five TULIP points, baptism for believers only.
If you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, then aren't you a fundamentalist by definition?
No. The term fundamentalist usually is inclusive of "free will" versions of theology. This I completely reject and would never want to be associated with.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Silversoul]
#11404324 - 11/07/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Personal beliefs should have little to do with moderation unless your belief is that you should be able to do whatever the fuck you want.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404334 - 11/07/09 11:52 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
No. The term fundamentalist usually is inclusive of "free will" versions of theology. This I completely reject and would never want to be associated with.
You reject that we humans have free will?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: RationalEgo]
#11404360 - 11/07/09 11:55 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RationalEgo said:
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Looking at these cultures may help to understand how the growth obsession can be stopped by seeing how ancient peoples dealt with the concepts of destruction.
They generally dealt with the concept of destruction through enslaving peoples bodies and minds and occasionally destroying large amount of their populous. Still interested?
What did they think about that? And who are the peoples that you are talking about? All human beings?
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deCypher]
#11404369 - 11/07/09 11:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fallen man does not have a free will. He can only act according to his fallen nature. Only regeneration can change the inner most parts of the person.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deCypher]
#11404375 - 11/07/09 11:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have in my wallet a "Get out of Hell Free" card which I got at Burning Man. It's one of my most treasured possessions. So I'm covered and all that.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404380 - 11/07/09 11:57 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
deranger said:
if god creates all people, why would he create them just to have them end up in hell for eternity?
you said this before:
Quote:
All the human race (babies included) are born guilty by imputation.
what kind of god would create everyone "guilty by imputation"? this doesn't sound like a kind and compassionate god to me. it sound more like the works of satan.
Read Romans 5 for imputation and Romans 9 for election and reprobation.
i don't have a bible at hand. can't you just explain in your own words? i am interested.
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RationalEgo
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Noteworthy]
#11404396 - 11/07/09 11:58 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Pretty much all cultures throughout history have done this to varying degrees. The United States is the best we have done so far with regard to freedom and culture, but it has certainly degenerated quickly. It was like a flash of lightening, brilliant but brief.
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Icelander
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: RationalEgo]
#11404418 - 11/07/09 12:01 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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 As usual I catch the tail end of the peak. Still it's better than the Inquisition.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404481 - 11/07/09 12:09 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sin, which is a transgression of the law entered into the race in the first transgression (in Adam). No other law was given from Adam to Moses, yet those from Adam to Moses are still condemned. So what law did they break? The first law given to Adam. Adam is the federal head of the race and all fell in him. Just as Christ is the head of all who become righteous in Him. The principle of headship is explained in Romans 5.
Romans 9 explains the fact that some of the race are fitted to be destroyed, and answers the objection that it would be unfair for this to be the case.
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deCypher
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404488 - 11/07/09 12:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I try to avoid guilt for imaginary sins of my forefathers.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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deranger
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11404598 - 11/07/09 12:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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well, congrats on having figured it all out.
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11405647 - 11/07/09 03:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
deranger said:
how do people enter heaven or become accepted by god and not go to hell? is there anything they must do or say?
Most people think that if they do something, like say a "sinner's prayer", repent, get baptized, become "good", or "dedicate themselves" that this will fulfill some obligation and make themselves acceptable with God. It is a conditional formula, however it is totally false.
Sinners have no "buying power" with God. They can not meet a condition since they are corrupted in the deepest levels of who they are. Only God can make someone who has no redeeming value acceptable to Himself. God has elected from before the foundation of the world all those that will inherit salvation. The election is not because He foresees someone having merit, sinners have no merit, period. Despite this (sinners having no value) He saves a few to the praise of the glory of His grace. Jesus redeemed His people from their sins, all those given to Him by the Father.
aww the Calvinist perspective...
1 Timothy 2:
4(D)who desires all men to be (E)saved and to (F)come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is (G)one God, and (H)one mediator also between God and men, the (I)man Christ Jesus,
6who (J)gave Himself as a ransom for all, the (K)testimony given at (L)the proper time.
2 Peter 3:
9(W)The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but (X)is patient toward you, (Y)not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Proverbs 1:
20(AB)Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22"How long, O (AC)naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And (AD)scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools (AE)hate knowledge?
23"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will (AF)pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24"Because (AG)I called and you (AH)refused,
I (AI)stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25And you (AJ)neglected all my counsel
And did not (AK)want my reproof;
26I will also (AL)laugh at your (AM)calamity;
I will mock when your (AN)dread comes,
27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a (AO)whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28"Then they will (AP)call on me, but I will not answer;
They will (AQ)seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29Because they (AR)hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
30"They (AS)would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.
31"So they shall (AT)eat of the fruit of their own way
And be (AU)satiated with their own devices.
32"For the (AV)waywardness of the naive will kill them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
33"But (AW)he who listens to me shall live securely
And will be at ease from the dread of evil."
Deuteronomy 30:
19"(W)I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, (X)the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live
something interesting about Calvinist theologians:
The most wonderful thing of all is that the distinguished Lutheran and Calvinist theologians who belong to our order really believe that they see in it (Illuminati) the true and genuine sense of Christian Religion. Oh mortal man, is there anything you cannot be made to believe?
Adam Weishaupt
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Icelander
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11405700 - 11/07/09 03:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
aww the Calvinist perspective...
1 Timothy 2:
4(D)who desires all men to be (E)saved and to (F)come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is (G)one God, and (H)one mediator also between God and men, the (I)man Christ Jesus,
6who (J)gave Himself as a ransom for all, the (K)testimony given at (L)the proper time.
2 Peter 3:
9(W)The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but (X)is patient toward you, (Y)not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Proverbs 1:
20(AB)Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22"How long, O (AC)naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And (AD)scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools (AE)hate knowledge?
23"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will (AF)pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24"Because (AG)I called and you (AH)refused,
I (AI)stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25And you (AJ)neglected all my counsel
And did not (AK)want my reproof;
26I will also (AL)laugh at your (AM)calamity;
I will mock when your (AN)dread comes,
27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a (AO)whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28"Then they will (AP)call on me, but I will not answer;
They will (AQ)seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29Because they (AR)hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
30"They (AS)would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.
31"So they shall (AT)eat of the fruit of their own way
And be (AU)satiated with their own devices.
32"For the (AV)waywardness of the naive will kill them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
33"But (AW)he who listens to me shall live securely
And will be at ease from the dread of evil."
Deuteronomy 30:
19"(W)I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, (X)the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live
something interesting about Calvinist theologians:
The most wonderful thing of all is that the distinguished Lutheran and Calvinist theologians who belong to our order really believe that they see in it (Illuminati) the true and genuine sense of Christian Religion. Oh mortal man, is there anything you cannot be made to believe?
Adam Weishaupt
I really want to pit you against fivepointer. However unlikely I consider your position I consider his completely insane. Go get em tiger.
Then you can tackle the Pooper. 
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11405746 - 11/07/09 03:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
what exactly defines "sin"?
Sin is a transgression of the law.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11405760 - 11/07/09 03:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The Book of Enoch:
12
1
Before these things Enoch was hidden, and no one of the children of men knew where he was
2
hidden, and where he abode, and what had become of him. And his activities had to do with the Watchers, and his days were with the holy ones.
3
And I Enoch was blessing the Lord of majesty and the King of the ages, and lo! the Watchers
4
called me --Enoch the scribe-- and said to me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves
5
wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness
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of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children, The murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain."'
13
1
And Enoch went and said: 'Azâzêl, thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth
2
against thee to put thee in bonds: And thou shalt not have toleration nor request granted to thee, because of the unrighteousness which thou hast taught, and because of all the works of godlessness
3
and unrighteousness and sin which thou hast shown to men.' Then I went and spoke to them all
4
together, and they were all afraid, and fear and trembling seized them. And they besought me to draw up a petition for them that they might find forgiveness, and to read their petition in the presence
5
of the Lord of heaven. For from thenceforward they could not speak (with Him) nor lift up their
6
eyes to heaven for shame of their sins for which they had been condemned. Then I wrote out their petition, and the prayer in regard to their spirits and their deeds individually and in regard to their
7
requests that they should have forgiveness and length. And I went off and sat down at the waters of Dan, in the land of Dan, to the south of the west of Hermon: I read their petition till I fell
8
asleep. And behold a dream came to me, and visions fell down upon me, and I saw visions of chastisement, and a voice came bidding (me) to tell it to the sons of heaven, and reprimand them.
9
And when I awaked, I came unto them, and they were all sitting gathered together, weeping in
10
'Abelsjâîl, which is between Lebanon and Sênêsêr, with their faces covered. And I recounted before them all the visions which I had seen in sleep, and I began to speak the words of righteousness, and to reprimand the heavenly Watchers.
16
1
From the days of the slaughter and destruction and death of the giants, from the souls of whose flesh the spirits, having gone forth, shall destroy without incurring judgement --thus shall they destroy until the day of the consummation, the great judgement in which the age shall be
2
consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, yea, shall be wholly consummated." And now as to the watchers who have sent thee to intercede for them, who had been aforetime in heaven, (say
3
to them): "You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth."
4
Say to them therefore: "You have no peace."'
its not easy to understand the the book of Enoch due to its style and the complexity of its topics
you really need an understanding of other scripture for this advanced text
but let me say this
Angels KNOW a whole lot more than we do...they are immortal and understand with certainty the results of all actions
the angels which left this state are not capable of forgiveness because they already FULLY understood the implications of their actions
Angels which have fell are also no longer capable of a godly nature
there is no black and white
they were white and now they are black
and they can't change that
they are not capable of genuine repentance like we are
consider yourself lucky that as a rather ignorant human being you are in a position of being able to fuck up and yet still genuinely repent and come to an understanding of the truth in the end
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11405836 - 11/07/09 03:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The free willers (Arminians) use 1 Timothy 2 and 2 Peter 3 as proof of their position. I will show them these verses do nothing to support their scheme.
1 Tim 2
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."
The "Who will have all men to be saved" is not every single person who ever lives. The context is all types of men. Paul describes different types of men in the first part and in the last part declares he is a teacher of the Gentiles. Clearly this is showing not just the Jews, but all men, of every type, are being converted and saved.
2 Peter 3
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
The "not willing that any should perish" refers to the "us-ward", who are the believers. God has elected a group of persons, and in time every single one of them will be saved, not one will perish.
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Icelander
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11405843 - 11/07/09 03:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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they are not capable of genuine repentance like we are
Not me. I'm a fallen angel and I still think we are going to win this thing.  
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11405855 - 11/07/09 03:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The "Book of Enoch" is NOT part of the scriptures.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11405879 - 11/07/09 03:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
The "Book of Enoch" is NOT part of the scriptures.
it was removed
its quoted in the new testament:
all the early Christians were versed in it and considered it scripture(we have several writings verifying this)
Jude 1:
14It was also about these men that (AU)Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "(AV)Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15(AW)to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which (AX)ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16These are (AY)grumblers, finding fault, (AZ)following after their own lusts; they speak (BA)arrogantly, flattering people (BB)for the sake of gaining an advantage.
the book of Enoch:
1
The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be
2
living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said --Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is
3
for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them: The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4
And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
[And appear from His camp]
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens. And all shall be smitten with fear
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.
6
And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame.
7
And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).
8
But with the righteous He will make peace,
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them.
And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all,
And light shall appear unto them,
And He will make peace with them.
9
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
Calvinist's are the reason I was banned from the Christian site I was a part of
they couldn't tackle my arguments head on and so they pulled some real Illuminati type shit on me
I find the perspective to be disgusting and to be nothing more then rhetoric based on a handful of scriptures which are only properly understood when put into the context of scripture as a whole
you guys do more damage then good IMO
this is the fruit of the Calvinist perspective:
http://www.trilulilu.ro/jackieboy/cc9b7645a3ed79?video_google_com=
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11405893 - 11/07/09 04:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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So you are saying God can not providentially protect His Word? Perhaps other writings have been lost as well? This says a lot about what you think of God's omnipotence.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11405928 - 11/07/09 04:07 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
such an "omnipotent" god created a FUCKED up lil experiment on this planet. wow, he was wasted.
Every thing that happens is part of the divine ordination of events.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11405942 - 11/07/09 04:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
So you are saying God can not providentially protect His Word? Perhaps other writings have been lost as well? This says a lot about what you think of God's omnipotence.
well consider that the book of Enoch was completely lost until it was discovered in ethiopia
its authenticity was questioned until it was later found at Qumram(dead sea scrolls) oldest scripture known to exist:
other books have been removed but I believe that the books we have are all genuine and some of the more advanced texts have been put into the category of pusedoepigrapha/apocrypha available for those who are capable of analyzing and understanding them
consider this:
revelation 22:
18I testify to everyone who hears (BC)the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone (BD)adds to them, God will add to him (BE)the plagues which are written in (BF)this book;
19and if anyone (BG)takes away from the (BH)words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from (BI)the tree of life and from the holy city, (BJ)which are written in this book.
this book was almost removed from scripture
Jude 1 was almost removed as well because of Luther(because it quoted Enoch)
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11405947 - 11/07/09 04:09 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
such an "omnipotent" god created a FUCKED up lil experiment on this planet. wow, he was wasted.
Every thing that happens is part of the divine ordination of events.
I agree with that
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11405986 - 11/07/09 04:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
why has "god" made a game of us? is he bored?
its not a game its choice
if you truly love the truth and are of God you will figure it out
and if not then you will get exactly what you deserve
the CHOICE is yours(Calvinist's believe we don't actually have freewill and can only choose God if He gives us the power do to do so)
in other words he arbitrarily chose who he would save and he wouldn't before the foundation of the world, some he wants, some he doesn't
I don't believe that of course but thats the Calvinist perspective in a nutshell
and there are MANY Calvinist's out there
Calvin as it turns out was a brutal murderous dictator lol
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406012 - 11/07/09 04:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
I did not ask my dad to ejaculate inside of my mother's vagina. I did not ask for life.I was a chemical reaction of one of a billion sperm and an egg.
God's plan of "believe or burn for eternity" is nonsensical, and nothing more than a way to control mass amounts of people through fear.
well you got it
what cha gonna do with it? are you gonna be a whiney little "poor me, poor me" or are you gonna be a winner?
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406025 - 11/07/09 04:22 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
according to your logic there really is no choice.
believe or die isn't a fair weighted choice.
belief is what allows you to come into commune with God and start to understand
its not as if you just randomly decided some method of being worthy of salvation
like "stand on one foot, hop around chanting "theres no place like home, theres no place like home""
theres a reason that belief is the requirement
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406028 - 11/07/09 04:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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This is a stupid thread. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406033 - 11/07/09 04:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The "choice" gospel is utterly FALSE. It is salvation by works. It gives the person boasting power (they make better choices than others). It denies original sin and the fallen nature of man. It is a damnable heresy.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406039 - 11/07/09 04:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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2 Esdras(Pseudepigrapha):
[9] Then those who have now abused my ways shall be amazed, and those who have rejected them with contempt shall dwell in torments.
[10] For as many as did not acknowledge me in their lifetime, although they received my benefits,
[11] and as many as scorned my law while they still had freedom, and did not understand but despised it while an opportunity of repentance was still open to them,
[12] these must in torment acknowledge it after death.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406053 - 11/07/09 04:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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They're all the same, don't just pick on the Christians...
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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. [Re: Poid]
#11406056 - 11/07/09 04:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406068 - 11/07/09 04:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
The "choice" gospel is utterly FALSE. It is salvation by works. It gives the person boasting power (they make better choices than others). It denies original sin and the fallen nature of man. It is a damnable heresy.
so go on tell everyone what you believe
that God selected you and rejected others...
yes or no?
spare me the rhetoric as well
I've heard it all a million times before and it hasn't convinced me thus far
Calvinist won't even tell you what they believe, they refer you to windy posts by "prestigious" theologians
this is either because they don't really understand what they apparently believe or because they are afraid of putting their beliefs out there because of the holes they are filled with
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406071 - 11/07/09 04:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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NOT scripture:
2 Esdras(Pseudepigrapha):
Keep adding false books to God's Word.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406077 - 11/07/09 04:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr. gonz said:
get the fuck out of my thread poid.
Gladly. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406078 - 11/07/09 04:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
why do christians believe that their god is the only way to happiness? it's sick.
I would say less the way to happiness and more to the way of contentment, truth and eventual release from this disturbing reality
we are in the process of a learning process
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406087 - 11/07/09 04:29 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
NOT scripture:
2 Esdras(Pseudepigrapha):
Keep adding false books to God's Word.
all Calvinist's reject 2 Esdras lol
reasoning?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406088 - 11/07/09 04:29 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
why do christians believe that their god is the only way to happiness? it's sick.
I would say less the way to happiness and more to the way of contentment, truth and eventual release from this disturbing reality
we are in the process of a learning process
Christians are all stupid as fuck. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406095 - 11/07/09 04:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
The "choice" gospel is utterly FALSE. It is salvation by works. It gives the person boasting power (they make better choices than others). It denies original sin and the fallen nature of man. It is a damnable heresy.
so go on tell everyone what you believe
that God selected you and rejected others...
yes or no?
spare me the rhetoric as well
I've heard it all a million times before and it hasn't convinced me thus far
Calvinist won't even tell you what they believe, they refer you to windy posts by "prestigious" theologians
this is either because they don't really understand what they apparently believe or because they are afraid of putting their beliefs out there because of the holes they are filled with
I never quote theologians as a source. I am more than happy to plainly tell you what I believe. Don't assume I am like everyone else you have dealt with in the past.
God does indeed select one and not another, deal with it.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406103 - 11/07/09 04:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
see, my point exactly. admitted "christians" don't even interpret the "message" the same way.
human beings 
Galations 1:
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting (L)Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a (M)different gospel;
7which is really not another; only there are some who are (N)disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we, or (O)an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be (P)accursed!
2 Peter 3:
15and regard the (AP)patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also (AQ)our beloved brother Paul, (AR)according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of (AS)these things, (AT)in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and (AU)unstable distort, as they do also (AV)the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17You therefore, (AW)beloved, knowing this beforehand, (AX)be on your guard so that you are not carried away by (AY)the error of (AZ)unprincipled men and (BA)fall from your own steadfastness,
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406107 - 11/07/09 04:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
God does indeed select one and not another, deal with it.
You would have to prove that "God" even exists before this statement could be considered to be true, deal with it. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (11/07/09 04:33 PM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406116 - 11/07/09 04:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
see, my point exactly. admitted "christians" don't even interpret the "message" the same way.
human beings
Galations 1:
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting (L)Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a (M)different gospel;
7which is really not another; only there are some who are (N)disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we, or (O)an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be (P)accursed!
2 Peter 3:
15and regard the (AP)patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also (AQ)our beloved brother Paul, (AR)according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of (AS)these things, (AT)in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and (AU)unstable distort, as they do also (AV)the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17You therefore, (AW)beloved, knowing this beforehand, (AX)be on your guard so that you are not carried away by (AY)the error of (AZ)unprincipled men and (BA)fall from your own steadfastness,
Why are you posting this mystical nonsense here in PS&P? 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406127 - 11/07/09 04:34 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
The "choice" gospel is utterly FALSE. It is salvation by works. It gives the person boasting power (they make better choices than others). It denies original sin and the fallen nature of man. It is a damnable heresy.
so go on tell everyone what you believe
that God selected you and rejected others...
yes or no?
spare me the rhetoric as well
I've heard it all a million times before and it hasn't convinced me thus far
Calvinist won't even tell you what they believe, they refer you to windy posts by "prestigious" theologians
this is either because they don't really understand what they apparently believe or because they are afraid of putting their beliefs out there because of the holes they are filled with
I never quote theologians as a source. I am more than happy to plainly tell you what I believe. Don't assume I am like everyone else you have dealt with in the past.
God does indeed select one and not another, deal with it.
ok so explain for everyone how God could desire everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved and yet choose not to save some Himself before the foundation of the world
are you saying God is not capable or willing to do what He desires?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Poid]
#11406132 - 11/07/09 04:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
see, my point exactly. admitted "christians" don't even interpret the "message" the same way.
human beings
Galations 1:
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting (L)Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a (M)different gospel;
7which is really not another; only there are some who are (N)disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we, or (O)an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be (P)accursed!
2 Peter 3:
15and regard the (AP)patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also (AQ)our beloved brother Paul, (AR)according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of (AS)these things, (AT)in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and (AU)unstable distort, as they do also (AV)the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17You therefore, (AW)beloved, knowing this beforehand, (AX)be on your guard so that you are not carried away by (AY)the error of (AZ)unprincipled men and (BA)fall from your own steadfastness,
Why are you posting this mystical nonsense here in PS&P?
I am having a conversation with the OP
if you don't like then fuck off
plain and simple
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406147 - 11/07/09 04:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
see, my point exactly. admitted "christians" don't even interpret the "message" the same way.
human beings
Galations 1:
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting (L)Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a (M)different gospel;
7which is really not another; only there are some who are (N)disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we, or (O)an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be (P)accursed!
2 Peter 3:
15and regard the (AP)patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also (AQ)our beloved brother Paul, (AR)according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of (AS)these things, (AT)in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and (AU)unstable distort, as they do also (AV)the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17You therefore, (AW)beloved, knowing this beforehand, (AX)be on your guard so that you are not carried away by (AY)the error of (AZ)unprincipled men and (BA)fall from your own steadfastness,
Why are you posting this mystical nonsense here in PS&P?
I am having a conversation with the OP
if you don't like then fuck off
plain and simple
It doesn't fucking matter who you're talking to, but what you're saying; if you're going to be posting crap from a religious/mystical book, then you better back it up with some sort of logical reasoning. Either that, or post it in the appropriate forum. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406152 - 11/07/09 04:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I already explained how you twisted the 1 tim 2 verses in a previous posting. You "all men" in context is all types of men as described in the section. You can't see this because you have created God who is different from the one in scripture.
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Mr. Mushroom
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Poid]
#11406157 - 11/07/09 04:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why would anyone believe in a religion that was forced upon the people violently and with no forgiveness to those that did not believe.
--------------------
"When the world starts going to shit....grow mushrooms!"
I lost my mind, its somewhere out there stranded!
Read my bio.
TRADE LIST GROW LOG
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Poid]
#11406164 - 11/07/09 04:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am on topic
if a mod would like to relocate the thread thats their decision
until then stay on topic and stop trying to sabotage the thread
you always post off topic and yet we don't complain about that...
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Mr. Mushroom]
#11406165 - 11/07/09 04:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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One reason is that they may be completely retarded.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Mr. Mushroom]
#11406170 - 11/07/09 04:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Mushroom said:
Why would anyone believe in a religion that was forced upon the people violently and with no forgiveness to those that did not believe.
people are fucked up thats why
we find ways of controlling and screwing up pretty much everything
that doesn't mean the gospel itself is to blame
you will find this within all human movements
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Posts: 40,372
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406177 - 11/07/09 04:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
I am on topic
if a mod would like to relocate the thread thats their decision
until then stay on topic and stop trying to sabotage the thread
you always post off topic and yet we don't complain about that...
You're posting shit straight from the Bible, but you're not providing any logical evidence for it; this is a debate-oriented forum, and you posting quotes from the Bible while refraining from supporting it with logic isn't what this forum was meant for. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Poid]
#11406190 - 11/07/09 04:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
I am on topic
if a mod would like to relocate the thread thats their decision
until then stay on topic and stop trying to sabotage the thread
you always post off topic and yet we don't complain about that...
You're posting shit straight from the Bible, but you're not providing any logical evidence for it; this is a debate-oriented forum, and you posting quotes from the Bible while refraining from supporting it with logic isn't what this forum was meant for.
he is asking questions about the Christian religion and you think I'm not going to use scripture?
fuck off seriously...
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406194 - 11/07/09 04:44 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's fine that you post the scripture, but not if you're going to refrain from backing if up with some sort of logical argument.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406200 - 11/07/09 04:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
I already explained how you twisted the 1 tim 2 verses in a previous posting. You "all men" in context is all types of men as described in the section. You can't see this because you have created God who is different from the one in scripture.
proof that "all men" means all types of men
scriptural proof please
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Mr. Mushroom
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406202 - 11/07/09 04:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushroom said:
Why would anyone believe in a religion that was forced upon the people violently and with no forgiveness to those that did not believe.
people are fucked up that's why
we find ways of controlling and screwing up pretty much everything
that doesn't mean the gospel itself is to blame
you will find this within all human movements
But what do you think would happen on this planet, if all of a sudden there was some sort of PROOF that god didn't create the earth and the heavens and something else or nothing at all but evolution was to blame. What kind of movement do you think the people would take then. Would be the beginning of the end if you ask me.
--------------------
"When the world starts going to shit....grow mushrooms!"
I lost my mind, its somewhere out there stranded!
Read my bio.
TRADE LIST GROW LOG
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406210 - 11/07/09 04:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
scriptural proof please
Mysticism & the Paranormal
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406231 - 11/07/09 04:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Romans 1:
19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.
24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (AY)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (AZ)gossips,
30slanderers, (BA)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (BB)disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, (BC)unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them.
explain this verse Calvinist
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Mr. Mushroom]
#11406236 - 11/07/09 04:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Mushroom said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushroom said:
Why would anyone believe in a religion that was forced upon the people violently and with no forgiveness to those that did not believe.
people are fucked up that's why
we find ways of controlling and screwing up pretty much everything
that doesn't mean the gospel itself is to blame
you will find this within all human movements
But what do you think would happen on this planet, if all of a sudden there was some sort of PROOF that god didn't create the earth and the heavens and something else or nothing at all but evolution was to blame. What kind of movement do you think the people would take then. Would be the beginning of the end if you ask me.
I think it would be the beginning of the end as well
thats why we must be diligent to verify evidence for ourselves
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406276 - 11/07/09 04:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Romans 1:
19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.
24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (AY)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (AZ)gossips,
30slanderers, (BA)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (BB)disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, (BC)unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them.
explain this verse Calvinist
This thread is not the place for a Pelagian / Calvinist verse war.
Also telling other posters to "fuck off" is not a fruit of the Spirit.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406291 - 11/07/09 05:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Romans 1:
19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.
24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (AY)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (AZ)gossips,
30slanderers, (BA)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (BB)disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, (BC)unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them.
explain this verse Calvinist
This thread is not the place for a Pelagian / Calvinist verse war.
Also telling other posters to "fuck off" is not a fruit of the Spirit.
this is a taste of the dishonest tactics Calvinist's must rely on
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406314 - 11/07/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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and yes I use the word FUCK
its been a part of my vocab since I was a child and I think it can be used to emphasize points
would you rather I act like I got a stick up my ass and am not human myself? you think that would help anyone?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T22-lHISxOY
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406321 - 11/07/09 05:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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This is not dishonest. This forum is not a bible verse discussion group. I would be happy to discuss these matters else where.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406325 - 11/07/09 05:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
This forum is not a bible verse discussion group.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406329 - 11/07/09 05:06 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
This is not dishonest. This forum is not a bible verse discussion group. I would be happy to discuss these matters else where.
you were perfectly willing to discuss it until I asked you to explain a verse...
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406340 - 11/07/09 05:07 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why don't you explain the verses? You're the one who initially posted them! 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11406347 - 11/07/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
This is not dishonest. This forum is not a bible verse discussion group. I would be happy to discuss these matters else where.
the thread can be used as such
thank you
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Poid]
#11406352 - 11/07/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Why don't you explain the verses? You're the one who initially posted them!
they mean that its based on our decision to turn away from God that we fall from grace
not because God decided to reject us
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deranger
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406375 - 11/07/09 05:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406380 - 11/07/09 05:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406388 - 11/07/09 05:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Acts 7:
51"You men who are (BT)stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Calvinist's claim we cannot resist the Holy Spirit
they think if God decides to give us "saving Grace" its impossible to resist(They pretty much say this word for word)
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406397 - 11/07/09 05:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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they also are unable to explain how Solomon(a chosen vessel of God who is responsible for Proverbs)
turned from God in the end(he even built Pagan temples of worship)
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Poid]
#11406414 - 11/07/09 05:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406423 - 11/07/09 05:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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not to mention the fact that Calvinist either believe God created Evil with the intention of it being Evil
OR..
they believe that choice was only afforded to the angels and Adam and Eve and as soon as Adam and Eve fell our freewill was eliminated and we are no longer able to choose God on our own
He must choose us so we can choose Him(according to them)
making our existence a game and completely futile lol
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11406425 - 11/07/09 05:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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too much brick wall
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406438 - 11/07/09 05:22 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
not to mention the fact that Calvinist either believe God created Evil with the intention of it being Evil
OR..
they believe that choice was only afforded to the angels and Adam and Eve and as soon as Adam and Eve fell our freewill was eliminated and we are no longer able to choose God on our own
He must choose us so we can choose Him(according to them)
making our existence a game and completely futile lol
god damn can the mind can be a tangled web
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elementswrath
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406447 - 11/07/09 05:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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i read the bible once or twice, i swear i lost some brain cells by doing so.
god is not forgiving, unless you swear to be his ass slave and do what he wants for your whole life and then he will give you a pimped out mansion with all the bitches you want when you die. sound familiar? almost all religions give you this "if you do this, i will give you the best when you die" speech.
why does god put you on earth to do a certain thing, then when you die he will give you a place in his nirvana. it's almost like we are his little ants and he plays with us in weird sickening ways! he created sin, yet he wants us to be good. he created the tree that Eve ate from.
IT'S ALL A BIG BULLSHIT CONSPIRACY !!!!!!
but go ahead, i won't stop you people in believing a zombie jew.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11406449 - 11/07/09 05:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
not to mention the fact that Calvinist either believe God created Evil with the intention of it being Evil
OR..
they believe that choice was only afforded to the angels and Adam and Eve and as soon as Adam and Eve fell our freewill was eliminated and we are no longer able to choose God on our own
He must choose us so we can choose Him(according to them)
making our existence a game and completely futile lol
god damn can the mind can be 
Fixed. 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: elementswrath]
#11406506 - 11/07/09 05:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said:
i read the bible once or twice, i swear i lost some brain cells by doing so.
god is not forgiving, unless you swear to be his ass slave and do what he wants for your whole life and then he will give you a pimped out mansion with all the bitches you want when you die. sound familiar? almost all religions give you this "if you do this, i will give you the best when you die" speech.
why does god put you on earth to do a certain thing, then when you die he will give you a place in his nirvana. it's almost like we are his little ants and he plays with us in weird sickening ways! he created sin, yet he wants us to be good. he created the tree that Eve ate from.
IT'S ALL A BIG BULLSHIT CONSPIRACY !!!!!!
but go ahead, i won't stop you people in believing a zombie jew.
God isn't the creator of Sin, Lucifer/Azazel is
Adam and Eve were told exactly what would happen if they ate of the tree
and they didn't just eat for nourishment, Eve was deceived into believing she would be like God if she ate and Adam listened to her
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
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Posts: 5,276
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406536 - 11/07/09 05:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
elementswrath said:
i read the bible once or twice, i swear i lost some brain cells by doing so.
god is not forgiving, unless you swear to be his ass slave and do what he wants for your whole life and then he will give you a pimped out mansion with all the bitches you want when you die. sound familiar? almost all religions give you this "if you do this, i will give you the best when you die" speech.
why does god put you on earth to do a certain thing, then when you die he will give you a place in his nirvana. it's almost like we are his little ants and he plays with us in weird sickening ways! he created sin, yet he wants us to be good. he created the tree that Eve ate from.
IT'S ALL A BIG BULLSHIT CONSPIRACY !!!!!!
but go ahead, i won't stop you people in believing a zombie jew.
God isn't the creator of Sin, Lucifer/Azazel is
Adam and Eve were told exactly what would happen if they ate of the tree
and they didn't just eat for nourishment, Eve was deceived into believing she would be like God if she ate and Adam listened to her
god created Lucifer as his second best compared to him, so creating him created sin.
why would god deliberately put a tree that is not to be eaten in a garden with two people? where did the snake come from? who is the snake? why did god create a snake to deceive Eve in the first place?
God apparently knows everything so he knew this shit was to happen so obviously this his either his sick game, or it's just a made up story.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: elementswrath]
#11406562 - 11/07/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
elementswrath said:
i read the bible once or twice, i swear i lost some brain cells by doing so.
god is not forgiving, unless you swear to be his ass slave and do what he wants for your whole life and then he will give you a pimped out mansion with all the bitches you want when you die. sound familiar? almost all religions give you this "if you do this, i will give you the best when you die" speech.
why does god put you on earth to do a certain thing, then when you die he will give you a place in his nirvana. it's almost like we are his little ants and he plays with us in weird sickening ways! he created sin, yet he wants us to be good. he created the tree that Eve ate from.
IT'S ALL A BIG BULLSHIT CONSPIRACY !!!!!!
but go ahead, i won't stop you people in believing a zombie jew.
God isn't the creator of Sin, Lucifer/Azazel is
Adam and Eve were told exactly what would happen if they ate of the tree
and they didn't just eat for nourishment, Eve was deceived into believing she would be like God if she ate and Adam listened to her
god created Lucifer as his second best compared to him, so creating him created sin.
why would god deliberately put a tree that is not to be eaten in a garden with two people? where did the snake come from? who is the snake? why did god create a snake to deceive Eve in the first place?
God apparently knows everything so he knew this shit was to happen so obviously this his either his sick game, or it's just a made up story.
there was nothing inherently wrong in Lucifer's design besides his freewill
Lucifer decided to rebel
God knew it would happen but did not WANT it to happen
you have to understand the fact that God operates outside of time to get an idea of how this possible
He put the tree in the garden so Adam and Eve would have the choice not to follow Him
He doesn't want to force anything(love cannot be forced it must be a truly 2 way relationship)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: elementswrath]
#11406571 - 11/07/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Please don't expect anything about christians or christanity to make logical sense. As the living dead man sez: "it is spritual logic"
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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elementswrath
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Icelander]
#11406625 - 11/07/09 05:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Please don't expect anything about christians or christanity to make logical sense. As the living dead man sez: "it is spritual logic"
hehehe you are right about that.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406696 - 11/07/09 06:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Why don't you explain the verses? You're the one who initially posted them!
they mean that its based on our decision to turn away from God that we fall from grace
not because God decided to reject us
Your theology is pure works based salvation. Your personal efforts maintain your standing with God. You have nullified grace and created a works reward system. It is almost Roman Catholic.
The scripture says all believers have eternal life. Eternal life can not be taken away, otherwise it would not be eternal.
Your gospel is not the one found in scripture.
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406706 - 11/07/09 06:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
elementswrath said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
elementswrath said:
i read the bible once or twice, i swear i lost some brain cells by doing so.
god is not forgiving, unless you swear to be his ass slave and do what he wants for your whole life and then he will give you a pimped out mansion with all the bitches you want when you die. sound familiar? almost all religions give you this "if you do this, i will give you the best when you die" speech.
why does god put you on earth to do a certain thing, then when you die he will give you a place in his nirvana. it's almost like we are his little ants and he plays with us in weird sickening ways! he created sin, yet he wants us to be good. he created the tree that Eve ate from.
IT'S ALL A BIG BULLSHIT CONSPIRACY !!!!!!
but go ahead, i won't stop you people in believing a zombie jew.
God isn't the creator of Sin, Lucifer/Azazel is
Adam and Eve were told exactly what would happen if they ate of the tree
and they didn't just eat for nourishment, Eve was deceived into believing she would be like God if she ate and Adam listened to her
god created Lucifer as his second best compared to him, so creating him created sin.
why would god deliberately put a tree that is not to be eaten in a garden with two people? where did the snake come from? who is the snake? why did god create a snake to deceive Eve in the first place?
God apparently knows everything so he knew this shit was to happen so obviously this his either his sick game, or it's just a made up story.
there was nothing inherently wrong in Lucifer's design besides his freewill
Lucifer decided to rebel
God knew it would happen but did not WANT it to happen
you have to understand the fact that God operates outside of time to get an idea of how this possible
He put the tree in the garden so Adam and Eve would have the choice not to follow Him
He doesn't want to force anything(love cannot be forced it must be a truly 2 way relationship)
one of the story's of the bible there is a city being destroyed and only one family was warned and told to leave but must not look back or they will be turned to salt, not a very loving example of god is it?
i like your fighting spirit, you are definably no poor sport when it comes to theology.
but what you are saying is proving my point, he knows all of this is to happen and he still does it anyway so obviously he is planing this whole thing like a game.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406729 - 11/07/09 06:07 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
elementswrath said:
i read the bible once or twice, i swear i lost some brain cells by doing so.
god is not forgiving, unless you swear to be his ass slave and do what he wants for your whole life and then he will give you a pimped out mansion with all the bitches you want when you die. sound familiar? almost all religions give you this "if you do this, i will give you the best when you die" speech.
why does god put you on earth to do a certain thing, then when you die he will give you a place in his nirvana. it's almost like we are his little ants and he plays with us in weird sickening ways! he created sin, yet he wants us to be good. he created the tree that Eve ate from.
IT'S ALL A BIG BULLSHIT CONSPIRACY !!!!!!
but go ahead, i won't stop you people in believing a zombie jew.
God isn't the creator of Sin, Lucifer/Azazel is
Adam and Eve were told exactly what would happen if they ate of the tree
and they didn't just eat for nourishment, Eve was deceived into believing she would be like God if she ate and Adam listened to her
god created Lucifer as his second best compared to him, so creating him created sin.
why would god deliberately put a tree that is not to be eaten in a garden with two people? where did the snake come from? who is the snake? why did god create a snake to deceive Eve in the first place?
God apparently knows everything so he knew this shit was to happen so obviously this his either his sick game, or it's just a made up story.
there was nothing inherently wrong in Lucifer's design besides his freewill
Lucifer decided to rebel
God knew it would happen but did not WANT it to happen
you have to understand the fact that God operates outside of time to get an idea of how this possible
He put the tree in the garden so Adam and Eve would have the choice not to follow Him
He doesn't want to force anything(love cannot be forced it must be a truly 2 way relationship)Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Why don't you explain the verses? You're the one who initially posted them!
they mean that its based on our decision to turn away from God that we fall from grace
not because God decided to reject us
Your theology is pure works based salvation. Your personal efforts maintain your standing with God. You have nullified grace and created a works reward system. It is almost Roman Catholic.
The scripture says all believers have eternal life. Eternal life can not be taken away, otherwise it would not be eternal.
Your gospel is not the one found in scripture.
and here comes the meaningless rhetoric
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406757 - 11/07/09 06:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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So if God wants every single person in the world to be saved how do you explain the fact that millions of people in history have lived and died and were never exposed to any gospel ever? God can see the beginning to the end, and yet did not change the scheme of salvation so that everyone get a equal chance.
In the OT the nation of Israel was told not to deal with the other nations at all. All those nations were shut off from the gospel and had no chance of salvation.
Also many times the scripture talks about predestination. Why would this term be used? Merely to show God can see through the tunnel of time? No way, this is not what is being said at all.
Many verses also show some are ordained to life while others are fitted to destruction. How do you explain away these verses?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406802 - 11/07/09 06:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
So if God wants every single person in the world to be saved how do you explain the fact that millions of people in history have lived and died and were never exposed to any gospel ever? God can see the beginning to the end, and yet did not change the scheme of salvation so that everyone get a equal chance.
In the OT the nation of Israel was told not to deal with the other nations at all. All those nations were shut off from the gospel and had no chance of salvation.
Also many times the scripture talks about predestination. Why would this term be used? Merely to show God can see through the tunnel of time? No way, this is not what is being said at all.
Many verses also show some are ordained to life while others are fitted to destruction. How do you explain away these verses?
Romans 2:
13for it is (X)not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do (Y)instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show (Z)the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406824 - 11/07/09 06:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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You didn't address any of my questions. If you paste a verse you should give your interpretation of what it means as well.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406831 - 11/07/09 06:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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you are so the typical Calvinist its not even funny lol
Romans 8:
28And we know that [c]God causes (BG)all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are (BH)called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He (BI)foreknew, He also (BJ)predestined to become (BK)conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the (BL)firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He (BM)predestined, He also (BN)called; and these whom He called, He also (BO)justified; and these whom He justified, He also (BP)glorified.
31(BQ)What then shall we say to these things? (BR)If God is for us, who is against us?
1 Peter 1:
1(A)Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as (B)aliens, (C)scattered throughout (D)Pontus, (E)Galatia, (F)Cappadocia, (G)Asia, and (H)Bithynia, (I)who are chosen
2according to the (J)foreknowledge of God the Father, (K)by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to (L)obey Jesus Christ and be (M)sprinkled with His blood: (N)May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
do you notice what is being said here? its saying our being chosen is according to foreknowledge
Acts 2:
22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: (W)Jesus the Nazarene, (X)a man attested to you by God with miracles and (Y)wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
23this Man, delivered over by the (Z)predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, (AA)you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406844 - 11/07/09 06:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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are you capable of making points that actually try to explain your position rather then relying on the rhetoric of your doctrine?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406855 - 11/07/09 06:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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the next logical step in the Calvinist arsenal is to try and claim that the foreknowledge doesn't actually mean foreknowledge
lets see if he trys to use this tactic(best golf announcer voice)
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406856 - 11/07/09 06:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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You still didn't address my questions, why can't you address them? They are plain questions, just give an answer in your own words. It is like pulling teeth.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406859 - 11/07/09 06:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
You still didn't address my questions, why can't you address them? They are plain questions, just give an answer in your own words. It is like pulling teeth.
I addressed your questions
but your playing the distraction game now which is also common amongst your brethren
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Mr. Mushroom]
#11406864 - 11/07/09 06:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nice name.
--------------------
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406882 - 11/07/09 06:29 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
You still didn't address my questions, why can't you address them? They are plain questions, just give an answer in your own words. It is like pulling teeth.
I addressed your questions
but your playing the distraction game now which is also common amongst your brethren
Your the one being evasive. You didn't answer my questions at all.
So if God wants every single person in the world to be saved how do you explain the fact that millions of people in history have lived and died and were never exposed to any gospel ever? God can see the beginning to the end, and yet did not change the scheme of salvation so that everyone get a equal chance.
In the OT the nation of Israel was told not to deal with the other nations at all. All those nations were shut off from the gospel and had no chance of salvation.
Also many times the scripture talks about predestination. Why would this term be used? Merely to show God can see through the tunnel of time? No way, this is not what is being said at all.
Many verses also show some are ordained to life while others are fitted to destruction. How do you explain away these verses?
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11406887 - 11/07/09 06:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
You still didn't address my questions, why can't you address them? They are plain questions, just give an answer in your own words. It is like pulling teeth.
I addressed your questions
but your playing the distraction game now which is also common amongst your brethren
Your the one being evasive. You didn't answer my questions at all.
So if God wants every single person in the world to be saved how do you explain the fact that millions of people in history have lived and died and were never exposed to any gospel ever? God can see the beginning to the end, and yet did not change the scheme of salvation so that everyone get a equal chance.
In the OT the nation of Israel was told not to deal with the other nations at all. All those nations were shut off from the gospel and had no chance of salvation.
Also many times the scripture talks about predestination. Why would this term be used? Merely to show God can see through the tunnel of time? No way, this is not what is being said at all.
Many verses also show some are ordained to life while others are fitted to destruction. How do you explain away these verses?
I showed you a verse which says that those who are not of the law do the works of the law they are a law unto themselves because of their heart
I then showed you that "being chosen" is according to foreknowledge
with the scriptures
what more do you want?
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11406942 - 11/07/09 06:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
You still didn't address my questions, why can't you address them? They are plain questions, just give an answer in your own words. It is like pulling teeth.
I addressed your questions
but your playing the distraction game now which is also common amongst your brethren
Your the one being evasive. You didn't answer my questions at all.
So if God wants every single person in the world to be saved how do you explain the fact that millions of people in history have lived and died and were never exposed to any gospel ever? God can see the beginning to the end, and yet did not change the scheme of salvation so that everyone get a equal chance.
In the OT the nation of Israel was told not to deal with the other nations at all. All those nations were shut off from the gospel and had no chance of salvation.
Also many times the scripture talks about predestination. Why would this term be used? Merely to show God can see through the tunnel of time? No way, this is not what is being said at all.
Many verses also show some are ordained to life while others are fitted to destruction. How do you explain away these verses?
I showed you a verse which says that those who are not of the law do the works of the law they are a law unto themselves because of their heart
I then showed you that "being chosen" is according to foreknowledge
with the scriptures
what more do you want?
So those who never heard any gospel ever can be saved without any gospel since they kept the law in their heart? No one is justified by works of the law (Gal 2:16), law is knowledge of sin and can never justify (Rom 3:20).
Your tunnel of time explanation simply can not be and makes no sense in context. The elect are chosen from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1), and therefore before any acts. I could go on with many more verses on election and predestination.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407025 - 11/07/09 06:54 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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let me post another little gem from Apocrypha:
"the epistle of the Apostles":
37 Then said we unto him: Lord, teach us what shall come to pass thereafter? And he answered us: In those years and days shall war be kindled upon war; the four ends of the earth shall be in commotion and fight against each other. Thereafter shall be quakings of clouds (or, clouds of locusts), darkness, and dearth, and persecutions of them that believe on me and against the elect. Thereupon shall come doubt and strife and transgressions against one another. And there shall be many that believe on my name and yet follow after evil and spread vain doctrine. And men shall follow after them and their riches, and be subject unto their pride, and lust for drink, and bribery, and there shall be respect of persons among them.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407051 - 11/07/09 06:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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and some info about your daddy, John Calvin:
Michael Servetus was a Christian living in the 1500's who incurred the wrath of John Calvin and was murdered by him and his cronies for illegitimate reasons. He was accused of heresy and railroaded through a mock trial and put to death being burned alive at the stake. Yet such an atrocity was praised by even well-known Calvinists as Bullinger and others for generations.
A couple of quotes from John Calvin himself:
7 years before the incident:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
Written by John Calvin in a letter to Farel Feb. 13, 1546
During the incident
Again Calvin writes Farel in a letter dated Aug 20th 1553 where he has Servetus arrested.
"We have now new business in hand with Servetus. He intended perhaps passing through this city; for it is not yet known with what design he came. But after he had been recognized, I thought that he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge. ... I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him"
very godly man lol
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407186 - 11/07/09 07:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
let me post another little gem from Apocrypha:
"the epistle of the Apostles":
37 Then said we unto him: Lord, teach us what shall come to pass thereafter? And he answered us: In those years and days shall war be kindled upon war; the four ends of the earth shall be in commotion and fight against each other. Thereafter shall be quakings of clouds (or, clouds of locusts), darkness, and dearth, and persecutions of them that believe on me and against the elect. Thereupon shall come doubt and strife and transgressions against one another. And there shall be many that believe on my name and yet follow after evil and spread vain doctrine. And men shall follow after them and their riches, and be subject unto their pride, and lust for drink, and bribery, and there shall be respect of persons among them.
This is not scripture. Please stick to the Word of God.
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407203 - 11/07/09 07:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
and some info about your daddy, John Calvin:
Michael Servetus was a Christian living in the 1500's who incurred the wrath of John Calvin and was murdered by him and his cronies for illegitimate reasons. He was accused of heresy and railroaded through a mock trial and put to death being burned alive at the stake. Yet such an atrocity was praised by even well-known Calvinists as Bullinger and others for generations.
A couple of quotes from John Calvin himself:
7 years before the incident:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
Written by John Calvin in a letter to Farel Feb. 13, 1546
During the incident
Again Calvin writes Farel in a letter dated Aug 20th 1553 where he has Servetus arrested.
"We have now new business in hand with Servetus. He intended perhaps passing through this city; for it is not yet known with what design he came. But after he had been recognized, I thought that he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge. ... I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him"
very godly man lol
I don't know about a particular man. Why do you continue to swerve away from the topic at hand? Make your case FROM THE SCRIPTURE. You are very evasive. Someone who has no case uses these tactics.
You are adding books to the Bible that are not part of the Bible.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407224 - 11/07/09 07:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
and some info about your daddy, John Calvin:
Michael Servetus was a Christian living in the 1500's who incurred the wrath of John Calvin and was murdered by him and his cronies for illegitimate reasons. He was accused of heresy and railroaded through a mock trial and put to death being burned alive at the stake. Yet such an atrocity was praised by even well-known Calvinists as Bullinger and others for generations.
A couple of quotes from John Calvin himself:
7 years before the incident:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
Written by John Calvin in a letter to Farel Feb. 13, 1546
During the incident
Again Calvin writes Farel in a letter dated Aug 20th 1553 where he has Servetus arrested.
"We have now new business in hand with Servetus. He intended perhaps passing through this city; for it is not yet known with what design he came. But after he had been recognized, I thought that he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge. ... I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him"
very godly man lol
I don't know about a particular man. Why do you continue to swerve away from the topic at hand? Make your case FROM THE SCRIPTURE. You are very evasive. Someone who has no case uses these tactics.
You are adding books to the Bible that are not part of the Bible.
this is the man who first proposed the the doctrine you adhere too
Calvinist's also love to try and claim you are doing exactly what they are in fact doing
you are the most annoying people I have ever debated with hands down
its all one big game of run around
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407290 - 11/07/09 07:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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You keep bringing up theologians not me. You are the one making it a run around not me.
Take your works salvation back to Rome where it belongs.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407294 - 11/07/09 07:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Romans 2:
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do (Y)instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show (Z)the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, (AA)according to my gospel, (AB)God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
what this is saying is that when those who are not exposed to the gospel and yet do the things of the gospel and have the heart of the gospel they are of Christ whether they have read the bible or not
Ephesians 1:
4just as (K)He chose us in Him before (L)the foundation of the world, that we would be (M)holy and blameless before Him (N)In love
5He (O)predestined us to (P)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (Q)according to the kind intention of His will
now when put into the context of Romans 8 which tells us:
28And we know that [c]God causes (BG)all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are (BH)called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He (BI)foreknew, He also (BJ)predestined to become (BK)conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the (BL)firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He (BM)predestined, He also (BN)called; and these whom He called, He also (BO)justified; and these whom He justified, He also (BP)glorified.
31(BQ)What then shall we say to these things? (BR)If God is for us, who is against us?
this shows that predestination and everything that entails stems from foreknowledge
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407319 - 11/07/09 07:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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do you believe that you existed before the foundation of the world?
cause if you don't then the only way God knew you before is through foreknowledge of your current existence
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407330 - 11/07/09 07:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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oh and lets try actually posting the scripture instead of your opinions with a little reference to scripture
this gives this illusion of authority over the verse without actually putting it out there to be analyzed
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407346 - 11/07/09 07:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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So salvation is by works of the law for those outside of the gospel being preached? Are you saying those outside the gospel can be saved without any gospel being heard, simply by acting according to their heart?
God foreknew in the sense of loved those elect vessels, whom He chose, from before the foundation of the world.
The tunnel of time theory is absurd. Why say so many things about election, choosing, predestinating, just to make the case that God can see the beginning to the end?
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Knobby Tops
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407362 - 11/07/09 07:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Because all religions are stupid and idiotic and only morons believe in an all powerful, all knowing, invisible man!
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giza
Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Knobby Tops]
#11407380 - 11/07/09 07:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe he did forgive satan, because for some reason god gave him power over hell, that's a great position
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407383 - 11/07/09 07:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
So salvation is by works of the law for those outside of the gospel being preached? Are you saying those outside the gospel can be saved without any gospel being heard, simply by acting according to their heart?
God foreknew in the sense of loved those elect vessels, whom He chose, from before the foundation of the world.
The tunnel of time theory is absurd. Why say so many things about election, choosing, predestinating, just to make the case that God can see the beginning to the end?
no salvation is through acceptance of the sacrifice of His Son and yes those who do not hear the gospel and yet have the a heart in sync with it are of Christ, of course the fact that they have this heart will almost assuredly lead them to the proper information
very simple
you are dodging my point about the fact that predestination and election is based on foreknowledge
we also see evidence in Proverbs 1 that God calls everyone:
20(AB)Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22"How long, O (AC)naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And (AD)scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools (AE)hate knowledge?
23"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will (AF)pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24"Because (AG)I called and you (AH)refused,
I (AI)stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25And you (AJ)neglected all my counsel
And did not (AK)want my reproof;
26I will also (AL)laugh at your (AM)calamity;
I will mock when your (AN)dread comes,
27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a (AO)whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28"Then they will (AP)call on me, but I will not answer;
They will (AQ)seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29Because they (AR)hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
30"They (AS)would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.
31"So they shall (AT)eat of the fruit of their own way
And be (AU)satiated with their own devices.
32"For the (AV)waywardness of the naive will kill them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
33"But (AW)he who listens to me shall live securely
And will be at ease from the dread of evil."
and...
John 12:
32"And I, if I (AU)am lifted up from the earth, will (AV)draw all men to Myself."
but of course you will claim all men doesn't actually mean all men lol
God is reaching out to EVERYONE but its up to them to respond to that
plain and simple
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: giza]
#11407390 - 11/07/09 07:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
giza said:
Maybe he did forgive satan, because for some reason god gave him power over hell, that's a great position
he doesn't have power over hell
hes destined to burn there
true hell(the lake of fire) hasn't even come to fruition yet
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407407 - 11/07/09 07:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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the fact that you believe the God of love would not reach out to EVERYONE and only a select few shows me that you don't understand a damn thing about love
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giza
Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407474 - 11/07/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
giza said:
Maybe he did forgive satan, because for some reason god gave him power over hell, that's a great position
he doesn't have power over hell
hes destined to burn there
true hell(the lake of fire) hasn't even come to fruition yet
what if hes fireproof
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: giza]
#11407530 - 11/07/09 08:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
giza said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
giza said:
Maybe he did forgive satan, because for some reason god gave him power over hell, that's a great position
he doesn't have power over hell
hes destined to burn there
true hell(the lake of fire) hasn't even come to fruition yet
what if hes fireproof
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dr_gonz
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NinjaDizzle
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407551 - 11/07/09 08:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
John 12:
32"And I, if I (AU)am lifted up from the earth, will (AV)draw all men to Myself."
but of course you will claim all men doesn't actually mean all men lol
God is reaching out to EVERYONE but its up to them to respond to that
plain and simple
I agree. The way He reaches people is different too. Some He calls to follow in churches, some He calls to worship by themselves, some He even calls without them knowing. Have you ever given thought that He calls to you through the use of psychedelics? In a state of pure "being" without the distractions and the temptations of the world, I feel like I'm sharing in His presence. So many people claim to use psychedelics for spiritual enlightenment and to dig deeper into their psyche, what could be deeper than spending time with your Creator, in the plane of his actual existence which cannot be attained without the aid of intense meditation or psychological enhancements. Each religion has bastardized the true message of God, and I think the youth that believe in God have seen that. There has been a noticeable movement of young people who take no stock in any denomination, that don't necessarily read and hold the Bible as the sole truth of the universe. But they search for God through themselves and through others by expressions of love and compassion.
Maybe God is not the true perception that religion has perverted him to be. Maybe he created us and allows us to make our own decisions. Maybe the Bible was simply a collection of psychedelic experiences passed down from generation to generation that taught people how to live. No one can say for certain one way or another. But if anyone can be accepting of another person's views and opinions, surely this would be the community.
--------------------
You know you're like the A-bomb; everyone's laughing, having a good time then you show up. Boom, everything's dead.
"The highest happiness of man...is to have probed what is knowable and quietly to revere what is unknowable."
--Johann Wolfgang van Goethe
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407634 - 11/07/09 08:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
the fact that you believe the God of love would not reach out to EVERYONE and only a select few shows me that you don't understand a damn thing about love
So what about the millions that have lived and died and never heard any gospel ever? It is a simple fact, no conversion, belief = no salvation. No gospel = no salvation. These people simply had no chance, it is a fact. You can not from scripture say people are saved without belief, it simply isn't in scripture.
In order to twist things to your thinking you must create a salvation without belief.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: NinjaDizzle]
#11407693 - 11/07/09 08:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
NinjaDizzle said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
John 12:
32"And I, if I (AU)am lifted up from the earth, will (AV)draw all men to Myself."
but of course you will claim all men doesn't actually mean all men lol
God is reaching out to EVERYONE but its up to them to respond to that
plain and simple
I agree. The way He reaches people is different too. Some He calls to follow in churches, some He calls to worship by themselves, some He even calls without them knowing. Have you ever given thought that He calls to you through the use of psychedelics? In a state of pure "being" without the distractions and the temptations of the world, I feel like I'm sharing in His presence. So many people claim to use psychedelics for spiritual enlightenment and to dig deeper into their psyche, what could be deeper than spending time with your Creator, in the plane of his actual existence which cannot be attained without the aid of intense meditation or psychological enhancements. Each religion has bastardized the true message of God, and I think the youth that believe in God have seen that. There has been a noticeable movement of young people who take no stock in any denomination, that don't necessarily read and hold the Bible as the sole truth of the universe. But they search for God through themselves and through others by expressions of love and compassion.
Maybe God is not the true perception that religion has perverted him to be. Maybe he created us and allows us to make our own decisions. Maybe the Bible was simply a collection of psychedelic experiences passed down from generation to generation that taught people how to live. No one can say for certain one way or another. But if anyone can be accepting of another person's views and opinions, surely this would be the community.
I like that post
I believe that I experienced God through LSD and Mushrooms
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11407728 - 11/07/09 08:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
giza said:
Maybe he did forgive satan, because for some reason god gave him power over hell, that's a great position
he doesn't have power over hell
hes destined to burn there
true hell(the lake of fire) hasn't even come to fruition yet
is eternal hellfire justifiable "punishment" to a man who lives a decent life but doesn't believe in jesus christ?
it depends more on the heart then it does actions
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11407730 - 11/07/09 08:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
it's still a subjective experience.
how can u be sure that what worked for u, will work for everyone?
because its the truth, if it doesn't work for you then you simply haven't tried hard enough to understand
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11407762 - 11/07/09 08:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
it's still a subjective experience.
how can u be sure that what worked for u, will work for everyone?
because its the truth, if it doesn't work for you then you simply haven't tried hard enough to understand
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
it's still a subjective experience.
how can u be sure that what worked for u, will work for everyone?
because its the truth, if it doesn't work for you then you simply haven't tried hard enough to understand
it's the truth as YOU SEE IT. Subjective truth is not absolute truth
my perspective is subjective
truth is objective whether you realize it or not
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11407791 - 11/07/09 08:44 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
how can you experience ANYTHING but subjective experience? You can't
doesn't negate the fact that their is a truth beyond my experience
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dr_gonz
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407844 - 11/07/09 08:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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"All" are those given to Jesus by the Father:
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Why doesn't Jesus pray for the world if every single person is meant to be saved?
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Notice the unbelieving Jews are that way because they are not of his sheep. All His sheep hear His voice:
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Notice all ordained to eternal life believed, not the other way around:
Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Some are ordained to condemnation:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Some are not appointed to wrath:
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11407854 - 11/07/09 08:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
I'm not, but what makes you so sure that you've stumbled upon the ONLY spiritual truth on this planet. This is what upsets me the most about Christianity.
thats something you have to figure out for yourself
I could sit here all day providing you reasons for why this is true but in the end you gotta see it for yourself
just like the matrix
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407876 - 11/07/09 08:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
"All" are those given to Jesus by the Father:
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Why doesn't Jesus pray for the world if every single person is meant to be saved?
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Notice the unbelieving Jews are that way because they are not of his sheep. All His sheep hear His voice:
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father�s hand.
Notice all ordained to eternal life believed, not the other way around:
Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Some are ordained to condemnation:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Some are not appointed to wrath:
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
John 10:
24(AF)The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us (AG)plainly."
25Jesus answered them, "(AH)I told you, and you do not believe; (AI)the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26"But you do not believe because (AJ)you are not of My sheep.
27"My sheep (AK)hear My voice, and (AL)I know them, and they follow Me;
Jesus is speaking from a prophetic future perspective
"you don't hear me now and I already know you never will"
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11407888 - 11/07/09 08:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
don't you think every other devout member of other religions is convicted enough to believe that without the shadow of a doubt their religion is ABSOLUTE truth??
I'm sure they are but that doesn't mean it is
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407905 - 11/07/09 08:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Election or choosing is of God:
Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect‘s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11407913 - 11/07/09 09:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Luke 6:
13And when day came, (M)He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as (N)apostles:
14Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James and John; and Philip and Bartholomew;
15and (O)Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot;
16Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
here we see that God drew Judas to Him and CHOSE him and yet he betrayed Him
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11407935 - 11/07/09 09:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
dr_gonz said:
don't you think every other devout member of other religions is convicted enough to believe that without the shadow of a doubt their religion is ABSOLUTE truth??
I'm sure they are but that doesn't mean it is
And I'm sure they say the same thing about Christianity!!!!!!!!!
it does not matter!!!!
either something is true or not it has no bearing if others believe something else is true
look at scientists, many times scientists argue over specific evidence and what it means but if one scientist is correct it doesn't matter what other scientists believe
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407939 - 11/07/09 09:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Some verses on predestination. Foreknowing is not the tunnel of time, it is a knowing of the person in love and predestinating them to salvation:
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
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dr_gonz
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11407950 - 11/07/09 09:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Election or choosing is of God:
Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God�s elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers� sakes.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect�s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God�s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Yes election according to foreknowledge
thank you for further backing up my case
little hint
the same thing that hardens one heart softens another
the response is everything
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11407960 - 11/07/09 09:04 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
I grew up around so many bible thumping christians, and the sad fucking similarity is their inability to consider anything outside what they been fed.
I've already considered it
when I first became a Christian I believed all religions were speaking of the same God
I now know better(based on my own honest research)
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elementswrath
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11408017 - 11/07/09 09:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
I grew up around so many bible thumping christians, and the sad fucking similarity is their inability to consider anything outside what they've been fed.
it's pretty common reaction from a retarded Christian.
remember witch burnings?
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dr_gonz
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fivepointer
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: Life Upon Death]
#11408134 - 11/07/09 09:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Election or choosing is of God:
Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God�s elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers� sakes.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect�s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God�s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Yes election according to foreknowledge
thank you for further backing up my case
little hint
the same thing that hardens one heart softens another
the response is everything
Your right it hardens one and softens another. Unfortunately your the one being hardened.
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Life Upon Death
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: fivepointer]
#11408226 - 11/07/09 09:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
Life Upon Death said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Election or choosing is of God:
Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God�s elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers� sakes.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect�s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God�s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Yes election according to foreknowledge
thank you for further backing up my case
little hint
the same thing that hardens one heart softens another
the response is everything
Your right it hardens one and softens another. Unfortunately your the one being hardened.
I'm right and yet I'm wrong?
Romans 9:
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.
19(AK)You will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
keep in mind what I just said to you
the same thing that hardens one heart softens another
John 12:
40"(BK)HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE (BL)HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
who do you believe is "HE" in this case?
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
Loc: suiciety
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11408367 - 11/07/09 10:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: elementswrath]
#11408385 - 11/07/09 10:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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this is still going on?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11408394 - 11/07/09 10:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's like watching a couple martyrs duke it out in the lion pit.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
Loc: suiciety
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deCypher]
#11408397 - 11/07/09 10:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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they where all eaten by lions and yet there spirits bicker in constant bullshit.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deCypher]
#11408420 - 11/07/09 10:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
It's like watching a couple martyrs duke it out in the lion pit.
spider webs a hidden everywhere
who's the spider?
and who's tangled in the web?
the spider...
my first born thought?
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
Loc: suiciety
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11408424 - 11/07/09 10:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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wut you tripping on?
it's got you all poetic.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: elementswrath]
#11408428 - 11/07/09 10:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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lots of acid
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
Loc: suiciety
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11408432 - 11/07/09 10:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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good ol acid.
it's given me the best times.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: elementswrath]
#11408453 - 11/07/09 10:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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yeah it's given me some pretty rough times too.
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
Loc: suiciety
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: deranger]
#11408465 - 11/07/09 10:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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i usually only get rough times when it's cause by others.
other than that it's a smooth mother ship ride.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: elementswrath]
#11408502 - 11/07/09 10:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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my rough times were caused by a trip that lasted months
it's all smooth sailing now tho
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NinjaDizzle
Stranger
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 123
Last seen: 8 years, 3 hours
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11408560 - 11/07/09 10:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
it's the truth as YOU SEE IT. Subjective truth is not absolute truth
Everyone is going to understand and interpret their experiences differently. There isn't one specified truth that you can point to and say this is right all others are wrong. That's why its a personalized relationship that matters, not a communal opinion passed from father to son. Trying to explain what God is like to another person that doesn't believe or has never experienced God is exactly like explaining what an LSD trip is. You can tell stories, you can share emotions you felt, the experience you had, but for them its going to be impossible to comprehend until they experience it themselves. This is like one of those barriers you have to break through, your preconceived notion of who God is needs to be what YOU understand, not what others tell you.
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You know you're like the A-bomb; everyone's laughing, having a good time then you show up. Boom, everything's dead.
"The highest happiness of man...is to have probed what is knowable and quietly to revere what is unknowable."
--Johann Wolfgang van Goethe
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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.
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showme
Stranger
Registered: 01/23/09
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11574793 - 12/03/09 02:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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what, that's the end of the thread?
i enjoyed reading this thread very much.
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Imagination is the organ of meaning.
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Flop Johnson
Praise Skatballah
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 13,789
Loc: TX
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11574796 - 12/03/09 02:43 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
If your "God" is almighty and forgiving - why won't he forgive satan?
cause satan still hasn't paid his half of the electric bill
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Almond Flour
...get off my lawn!
Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 11,341
Last seen: 2 hours, 52 minutes
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Re: Question for all the Christians around here [Re: dr_gonz]
#11577957 - 12/03/09 04:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Luckily I dont need to know or understand the answer to that question, just as a 5 yr old should not be knowing why his parents are fighting and on the verge of divorce.
--------------------
Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church" 
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