Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Boomr Bag   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!?
    #11402080 -

For those of you who have been around here for quite awhile, or even those of you who read the cult forum like the poor read the bible, may be familiar with this lil diddy of a thread by AGAR, which he posted some 4 years ago in the Contam Forum:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3797303/fpart/1/vc/1

Everyone else who missed this doozy of thread, it is more than just the typical brilliant Agar observation or tek mod. He claims to have invented a super substrate.. one that needs no pasteurization or heat treatment of any kind. This alone would be an incredible feat, yet Agar went on to claim the substrate was also capable of producing holly grail levels of biological efficiency, stating that in the hands of an experienced cultivator, this "Super Sub" was capable of producing flushes weighing greater than the entire substrate itself! But similarly incredible results could be achieved by the noobiest of noobs:

"this should give home cultivators a 200% B/E product that a 12 year old can cultivate with, without any of the costly tools or methods bulk grows now require, at a very LOW per pound dry price, which by the looks of it will be about the same cost as organic rye, from a health food store & would increase it's weight about 6 fold, when water is added"

Now, as many of us know, Agar was some what of a latter day mycological Da Vinci, yet unfortunately also shared the great renaissance man's ADD tendancy's.. working on many brilliant ideas but finishing only a fraction. I'm sure many of you remember his other various inventions that never made the light of day, such as the reusable self-adhesive injection ports.

And as you can see, this thread dates back over 4 years ago, and although he stated he had already patented this wonder substrate I know of no documented accounts of others testing this product.

This brings me to the point of this thread. Hopefully with the help of the community I would like to decode this mysterious product in the hopes of making the details of this wonder sub available to the shroomery at large to help noobs and pros alike, so that Agars hard work, money spent and dedication do not go to waste. And although he kept the method and ingredients secret, I believe this is what he would want since he was unable to capitalize on it during his lifetime.

There are tons of hints littered throughout the post which should allow us to collectively peace together the basic methodology and composition of this substrate.  He states on page 8 that "there is a somewhat simular patented product available - out of Korea" and this, together with the fact that he claimed to have finished patenting it himself, should be almost enough alone to piece this puzzle together, given enough googling at patent database searching.

Also, if anyone did indeed receive the samples he said he would provide, please share your experience and any knowledge you deem fit. And if he did perhaps share any additional knowledge and details of the invention with any of you and you believe he would want this to become public knowledge for the collective benefit of the shroomery.. please share.

But also, if anyone knows first hand that he passed this patent or product along to someone else to profit off of I will gladly take down this post as I would hate to go against any further financial or production plans he hoped to have been carried out after his passing.

RIP Agar.. The shroomery's very own Mycologicle Merlin!


--------------------

Koopa Out
OfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #11402086 -

For now.. here are some interesting excerpt from the thread on this mystery subs composition:

"Hint - Cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin, fiber, carbohydrates, proteins, oils, lipids, polymers, vitamins, nitrogen, soluble macro mineral trace elements, and cultured (dead) cells of certain microbes, mixed into a holding material that has a high moisture & nutriant retention capacity, as well as good permeability to gas/air."

"For home growing, the product would come loose - or compacted like coir, with an absorbant moisture retention material mixed in, because the intended use is cakes & substrate that will fruited from. So, a high moisture retention capacity is required for fruiting purposes.

For commercial applicatiom it would in pellet form without the absorbant moisture retention material mixed in. Because, for pellet spawn use, or as a delayed nutriant in compost substates, it isn't needed.

By themselves, the organic nutriant materials alone will absorb enough moisture to function perfectly as spawn, or a delayed nutriant in commercial applications into a moisture bearing compost substrate.

The trick was making a formulation that will not stick to itself & clump the material into a solid unbreakable mass, when used as spawn alone."

"Mycelium produce and emit a wide range of extracellular enzymes, and it is these extracellular enzymes that enable them to degrade complex organic matter into soluble substances which can then be absorbed for purposes of nutrition, growth, and fruiting.

Lignin-humus complex and cellulose are important, but protein, fat, and oils are just as important in the process. One doesn?t work properly, without the other.

Because, IMHO the main source of fruit body building compounds for the mushroom is from microbes. The dead cells of thermophilic fungi, bacteria, and actinomycetes are the very items that deliver chitinous polymers, protein, lipids and fat to form the mushroom. Culturing those alone is no easy or inexpensive feat.

As for shipping in bags, true. However, consideration must be given to the fact the bag would be opened & hydrated in unfiltered air, with unfiltered or untreated water & could / would pick up possible contaminates during that process.

A methodligy was made to alleviate that factor. Yet, keep the process simple, so anyone could do it."


Here are some additional details on the substrates composition as well as Agars additional emphasis on the importance of dead microbes in the product:

"Trick was getting "pellets' not to turn into a solid mass creating a solid rock. Pellets have to stay solid enough - long enough, once colonized to break apart - back into tiny pellets, to be used as spawn. I had tons of trouble getting that right.

There significant factual evidence from Penn State, about dead microbes. Ponder that dead microbes make up a part of fresh - ready to spawn - premium commercial mushroom compost, besides the other material the finished compost consists of.

P2 composting, kills some, pasturizing kills others but firefang, which myc eats dead or alive, like cold fresh watermelon at an Afro-American picnic.

Self sealing site is not needed."


carbon / nitrogen ratio <17:1, nitrogen 2.6%, phosphorus 0.2-05%, potassium 1.5-2%, calcium 1.5-2%, available boron <2 ppm, available ammonium <10 ppm, soluble salts 3.0-5 OdS/m.


--------------------

Koopa Out
OfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #11402113 -

all i want for christmas is....


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: youngsaint707]
    #11402227 -

Although Agar later came out with a similar substrate in which he called "myco nitro" I believe they are 2 different things or that the myco nitro was a simpler derivative of this original post since this post details the inclusion of pelletillized structures and such.. but any input on myco nitro and its possible composition would also be very welcomed.. I read in a thread somewhere that he detailed the ingredients and make up of myco nitro but could not find it :/


--------------------

Koopa Out
OfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #11402441 -

Super substrate eh?  Well, count me in on buying some when its all figured out!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: Sinoc]
    #11402777 -

A quick Korean patent search yields a few things.  One is a substrate based on opuntia ficus-indica, the barbary fig.  Since I don't feel like paying $30 to read a patent that may not mean anything, that's about all the info I have on that one, but if anyone is interested, here's the site
just search for mushroom substrate


--------------------
"“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.""
—Bill Hicks


:guitarhero:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: cowfodder]
    #11402850 -

Wait... Agar's dead?


--------------------
“Cannibalism? Racism? Dude, that’s not for us ... those decisions are better left to the suits in Washington. We’re just here to eat some dude!”

-Charlie Kelly

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: Sinoc]
    #11402863 -

I agree the specific of the ingredients would be a touch saying that the investment is off the scale. Also getting the microbe complement, culturing and processing would be really hard and I reckon that it may not even work if they were omitted from the formualtion, hence they are essential. IMO 

It seems like all the dry ingerdients must have been powdered really finely formulated via wet granulation, possibly with binding agents which could be digested by the myc (it makes perfect sense to do so). Then the dry graules pressed in to pellets. Agar says 'pellets which will break into smaller ones' and different formulations for different purpouses, commecial or home use. I'm got a few ideas of the formualtion but thats it, ingredients would be...

He also mentions the 'pre'treatment' of subs, any ideas?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: badman]
    #11404964 -
Log in to view attachment

Hey Blackout, would love to hear your ideas on formulation.. I noticed you mirrored agars sentement on how hard and costly including all the extra dead microbes would be.. having to culture them and all.. This seems to me, to be the most important key to making the substrate so ideal.. which is why he mentions microbes over and over again.

Well... check this nice lil link I found:
Go down to about page 7 or 8 to the subheading Fermentation: The Art of Microorganism's Which is an excerpt from a Korean Mycologists book "The Essence of Mushroom Cultivation: Fermentation of the Substrate,"

LINK DIDNT WORK, so I downloaded it and attached it as a PDF instead.. go to Chapter 8 I believe

Maybe he knew about this method and wanted to throw people off on how hard it would normally be considered in the West? Could these extra amounts of beneficial microbes be the reason for his substrates Super Contam resistent abilities? I have a hard time figuring out any other way a nutrient rich substrate would effectively be able to fight off other microorganisms without the use of anti bacterials and such which AGAR def. wouldnt consider.

For a test, I would propose to develop a method following the fermentation of cottonseed hulls, straw, bran, horse poo.. allow it to be composted with a few other things the link lists and then seperate the compost into two piles. One will be fermented (to culture these beneficial microbes) the other not. Once one of the piles is fermented, maybe add a small portion of it to the unfermented pile allowing you to spread the beneficial microbes onto the more usable "unfermented" substrate.. best of both worlds.

Edited by koopa_troopa (11/07/09 01:37 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: koopa_troopa]
    #11405527 -

I am interested in 2 things, the forumla and his method for keeping it sterile etc. I think may simply have been a bag which is resealable, you open and pour in boiling water and any airborne contams might be killed by the hot water in the bag.

The fermentation idea is interesting, in the advanced forum there is already a good active thread on the subject, the theory is antibiotics are formed in the grains during fermentation, however it was said it might not work with spores. Towards the end of the thread you will see discussion on drying out this grain and rehydrating later -which I have done before.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8729280/fpart/all/vc/1

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: blackout]
    #11405846 -

Any idea what happened to agar? I have gained lots from reading his material and had no clue he was MIA.


--------------------
Cervantes' sclerotia thread    Citric's self-healing lid tek  Agar's Grain LC  Breaking Up Spawn Jars

World's Ugliest Cat?

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: AGARS Mysteriously Magical Contam Proof Super Sub!?!? [Re: myceleus_rex]
    #11406853 -

I was going threw some corn threads and I seen something that might help. Agar talks about corn a bit as a sub and then goes into what he thinks makes a perfect sub. I will post his whole talk about what he thinks make an effective or productive sub. The most important part that goes with what we are talking about is his last paragraph. Just a small peice of the puzzle but we will have to dig.

agar said:
Certainly, you could use salt free cooked canned corn as a substrate (it is pasteurized - after all). But, in my humble opinion - it would not make a very effective, or productive one.

Rye & WBS work as a substrate. But, they also has significant limitations.

OPTIMAL SUBSTRATE..... should have the form & texture of humus (loam like SPONGY airy mixed organic texture), as well as provide a wide range of essential nutrients.

The limitation of WBS, rye or corn as a substrate is, once it colonizes 100%, it essentially becomes a hard / firm / semi-solid mass of grain & mycelium.

A solid mass of colonized grains only contains so much moisture. That colonized mass doesn't rehydrate well, or quickly. Mushroom fruit bodies are about 90% moisture (water). In order for them to thrive, besides nutrients, they must have an adequate  moisture resource to draw from. Without one, they are restrained far below their optimal growth & fruit size perimeters.

I am not discrediting any grain substrate. They will function, but in my opinion - not in an optimal way.

Something - I wrote in a different life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psilocybe Cubensis are habitat specific. Meaning, they cannot grow in the wild, unless their habitat provides a suitable environment, along with sufficient natural nutrients. Over the millennia, they have evolved inherent genetic traits best suited for their continuous survival in specific geographic area's they successfully inhabit.

All fungi feed by absorption of nutrients. Because of the huge range of potential nutrient sources, fungi evolved enzymes suitable for the specific environments in which they are generally found. The range of enzymes, though wide in may species, is not sufficient for survival in all environments.

Psilocybe Cubensis excrete a complex array of genetically predetermined enzymes for digestion. The enzymes are present in multiple forms, based on a single inherent genetic sequence, and include a range of isoenzymes, which arise from different inherent genetic sequences.

Simply stated, Psilocybe Cubensis excrete enzymes into the organic material in which their underground mycelia (root) system naturally grow. Those enzymes degrade nutrients there, into simple soluble forms of sugars and amino acids, which are then easily absorbed into the mycelia network. Resulting in them acquiring all essential elements with which to grow fruit bodies, and spores (seed) by which they propagate their species.

It is common knowledge that most strains of Psilocybe Cubensis flourish in select warm moist habitats worldwide, associated where horses, cattle and water buffalo naturally spread bovine type manure. Consequently, Psilocybe Cubensis developed inherent genetic traits, enabling then to excrete specific enzymes best suited to enable them to specifically dissolve, digest and take up nutrients available from bovine type manure, and/or soil enriched with it.

Therefore, Psilocybe Cubensis own inherent genetic traits attest that bovine type manure alone, or soils highly enriched with it, is best suited to their nutrient needs, in the wild.

Taking that fact, one step further. Aged leached dry bovine type manure, when aerobically composted together with a small percent of other select fruits, vegetables, grains and straw provides an even more enriched super nutrient source for cultivation of Psilocybe Cubensis . Moreover, a compost of this type provides an ideal moist subsurface habitat (substrate) that, Psilocybe Cubensis mycelia will colonize faster than any other.





--------------------
Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS
http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary
I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt                         
Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt
Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet
Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat,

:onfire:DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!:onfire:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Boomr Bag   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* agar Psychoslut 973 4 02/18/03 08:07 AM
by afoaf
* What is the least contam prone substrate? *DELETED* MeetMeInEleusis 1,317 4 03/24/02 11:59 AM
by HisStudent
* Is this a good price for agar? Funger 1,170 3 10/29/02 04:47 AM
by blackout
* Re: Blue-Green Contams greymule 810 2 03/30/01 02:44 PM
by greymule
* Micron Magic or Coffee Filter mrshrums 1,079 3 09/22/01 05:42 PM
by oscill8
* handle agar question fugu 1,930 10 02/12/03 08:11 AM
by tripndicular
* Test Tube + Agar Q x_bonerz_x 890 1 02/24/03 05:52 PM
by KingCobWeb
* the point of agar is? upupup 934 3 11/23/01 04:23 PM
by kingkc

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, the_chosen_one, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, hamloaf, cronicr, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
2,160 topic views. 36 members, 19,370 guests and 288 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.057 seconds spending 0.033 seconds on 16 queries.