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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Workman]
    #11529109 - 11/25/09 11:29 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting.  Would you say there is any species it resembles at all?  Is it at the very least a unique species?


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Dishez]
    #11529116 - 11/25/09 11:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Dishez said:
Found about ten more today, these were on a different "clump" about 20 yards away from those that i found last time.  I doubt ill be able to go back out to hunt for them this year, so for now, I would say that they have been in their prime throughout the past two weeks. It should be noted that, of the fairly large area I have been hunting, I have found four "spots" that had them...each spot being one square foot at the most. Also, I found another specimen growing completely submerged in water.




That's insane, I had no idea mushrooms could even grow underwater!


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: libertaire]
    #11529230 - 11/25/09 11:55 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I doubt it fruited under water, it was probably submerged after it had formed, on the other hand check out Psathyrella aquatica, that recently described species is the first gilled mushroom to be described that fruits under water!
inski..


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Invisiblewisp
Registered: 04/14/08
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: inski]
    #11530466 - 11/26/09 06:21 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Very interesting find. I look forward to seeing the verdict of what it turns out to be.

By the way, hello Shroomery, it's been a while. :smile:


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: wisp]
    #11531443 - 11/26/09 12:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well, I thought I had figured this out.  Looking at Guzman's description, the figure for the cheilocystida doesn't match the size or proportions of the measurements given for the cheilocystidia, but does match the measurements given for the pleurocystidia.  If the cystidia measurements were transposed the match with the recent collection would be pretty good.  Such an error is easy to accept since Guzman's texts are filled with such mistakes.

But....... Looking at Smith (1948) which gives a more complete description of Peck's 1911 type collection we find nearly identical measurements as those given by Guzman (1983).  The only additional information is that the pleurocystidia are rare to scattered.  It seems unlikely both authors would make the same mistake unless Guzman was influenced by Smith's earlier work and that doesn't explain the problem with Guzman's figures 

Another note is that the gill trama is brownish (Guzman 1983) or ochraceous tawny (Smith 1948) which is something I noticed immediately on this sample.  It doesn't show up too well in this micrograph but the brownish gill trama is the darker band at the bottom.  The dark gill trama is much more dramatic that the micrograph suggests.



At this point I think the case for Psilocybe graveolens is pretty good despite the confusion with the cystidial dimensions.  All other features, including habitat match well.  Additional samples need to be examined to determine the range of cystidial morphologies and dimensions.  If the pleurocystidia are actually as large as described, they should be easy to see even if rare.


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Edited by Workman (11/26/09 12:59 PM)


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Workman]
    #11531694 - 11/26/09 01:32 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Another note is that the gill trama is brownish (Guzman 1983) or ochraceous tawny (Smith 1948) which is something I noticed immediately on this sample.  It doesn't show up too well in this micrograph but the brownish gill trama is the darker band at the bottom.  The dark gill trama is much more dramatic that the micrograph suggests.




What do you think about the overall color of the sample?

When I put it under the scope it looked browner than most of the Psilocybes I have seen, making me wonder if it isn't a different genus entirely.  Maybe it would be helpful to take a close look at the pileipellis.

I am kind of hesitant to try to force it to match with P. graveolens - If its something else we should call it that.

I'll put some gill fragments on agar in a few minutes.



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OfflineDishez
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #11533967 - 11/26/09 10:12 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks so much for the work you are doing so far.
Alan, im a noob at microscope work...
Quote:

Maybe it would be helpful to take a close look at the pileipellis.


would this be done by taking a cross section of the cap and examining it, the direction that the hyphae grow in would indicate the genus? Ill go do that now and post some pics...i doubt ill do it right but it should be fun :smile:


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OfflineDishez
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Dishez]
    #11534085 - 11/26/09 10:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)


Heres the best I could do...hope it helps!


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #11534398 - 11/26/09 11:32 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:

What do you think about the overall color of the sample?

When I put it under the scope it looked browner than most of the Psilocybes I have seen, making me wonder if it isn't a different genus entirely.  Maybe it would be helpful to take a close look at the pileipellis.

I am kind of hesitant to try to force it to match with P. graveolens - If its something else we should call it that.

I'll put some gill fragments on agar in a few minutes.






Well the spore color and size is a match for Psilocybe graveolens which could be a coincidence, I guess.  The gill trama is brown and if viewing thick slices, would give the section an overall browner appearance.  But the hymenium is almost entirely hyaline with the exception of the occasional brown cystidia.

Do you have a suggestion as to what other genus it might fit in better?  To me it looks like a Psilocybe, and if bluing, of the Psychedelia clade.  But the species identity isn't conclusive.  It could be a variant of P. graveolens, since it does seem to share most features.


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OfflineIstigkeit
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Dishez]
    #11535464 - 11/27/09 02:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

luuuuuuucky  :zoom:


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OfflineDishez
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Istigkeit]
    #11535998 - 11/27/09 08:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ive been meaning to post these...
Here are two pictures showing the greening, which is obvious but not heavy.





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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Dishez]
    #11537188 - 11/27/09 02:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Might be mistaken, but it looks like there's some bruising on that stem as well in the bottom picture.


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OfflineDishez
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Dishez]
    #16598216 - 07/27/12 09:44 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry to dig up such an old thread...this is my first time using the site in quite a while. I was just reviewing the info here and realized that another step can be taken towards coming to a conclusion regarding the ID of these mushrooms. Perhaps I can send fragments from several (say 5-8) different samples of this mushroom to Alan and workman (whom I hope would still be interested in doing some microscopy). We then take the data recorded on each sample and run it through excel, noting whether or not the trend in the sizes from the most current samples is statistically different from the sizes of Peck's sample. Would this help?


Edited by Dishez (07/27/12 09:45 AM)


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Offlinemycoscopy
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Dishez]
    #16598857 - 07/27/12 12:32 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Anything I say about psilocybes is purely hypothetical.


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Dishez]
    #16639746 - 08/03/12 02:46 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I'm interested.  It is good to see you back!


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Dishez]
    #16678282 - 08/10/12 08:21 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

So you have more collections?

I would be happy to sequence them.

I think you sent me a bit awhile back and the microscopy I did was inconclusive.  I could do a much better job now since I have a lot more experience with section Zapotecorum.


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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #16678981 - 08/10/12 10:23 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

awesome!!! great to see you back Dishez! :thumbup:


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18505903 - 07/03/13 09:27 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

A couple days ago I got the chance to examine the type collection, which is on loan to the XAL herbarium from the New York Botanical Gardens. I have microscopy, however Alonso has requested that I not publicly post the micrographs until the publication of a paper he is working on.

The gills are a lighter color than I usually see in Psilocybe, however microscopic features match well with that genus.  Cystidia observed in the type collection match well with what Workman posted. 

This collection was made in November of 1911.

http://mushroomobserver.org/138461





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OfflineRiparianZoneJunky
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18505916 - 07/03/13 09:34 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, such a cool find.  Over 100 years between sightings of this elusive psilocybe. :eek:


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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: Psilocybe Graveolens!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: RiparianZoneJunky]
    #18509227 - 07/04/13 12:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Ya this find was epic!!!

Cool update Alan!  Thanks for sharing!  Must have been cool looking at a historical Psilocybe !!!  :rockon:


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Edited by psylosymonreturns (07/04/13 12:21 AM)


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