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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: deCypher]
    #11393663 - 11/05/09 08:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Are you defining anything that would make you happy as being pleasurable?

Actually I am. I'm guessing that's what the other poster meant by "pleasure". That which makes one happy. At least eventually.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11393667 - 11/05/09 08:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said: A nihilist knows that all morals are meaningless. He chooses whatever makes him happy knowing that also is ultimately meaningless. He chooses to have personal ethics because they make him or her feel good. Not because they are "right or wrong".




If the 'nihilist' chooses to make himself feel happy or good, then he or she is assigning value to hedonism and therefore is not a nihilist.  Existential hedonist, perhaps.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Are you defining anything that would make you happy as being pleasurable?

Actually I am. I'm guessing that's what the other poster meant by "pleasure". That which makes one happy. At least eventually.




Sure, then I'll agree with you, but in that case we're no better off than where we started.  Asking what makes you happy cannot be answered with pleasure then unless you like vicious tautologies.  :lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: deCypher]
    #11393686 - 11/05/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm guessing you haven't read through this thread.

A nihilist knows nothing has enherent value. That doesn't stop him from creating a subjective and personal value system for personal happiness. He just knows it's ultimately meaningless.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/05/09 08:07 PM)

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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11393690 - 11/05/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sometimes pain can be a good thing.




therefore it is pleasure... no?


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

Edited by LuSiD9 (11/05/09 08:07 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11393692 - 11/05/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you're creating subjective meaning, then you're by definition an existentialist, not a nihilist.  A nihilist cannot assign value to subjectively created meaning.

Quote:

LuSiD9 said:
Sometimes pain can be a good thing.

therefore it is pleasure... no?




With the exception of pain coming simultaneously with pleasure a la sadomasochism, I would hesitate to call a painful experience pleasurable just because it eventually gives me happiness.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: deCypher]
    #11393822 - 11/05/09 08:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

A nihilist knows nothing has enherent value. That doesn't stop him from creating a subjective and personal value system for personal happiness.




I agree with deCypher.

The moment he creates this new value system, he is no longer a Nihilist. A true Nihilist would regard all values, including those that lead to personal happiness, as equally useless and irrelevant.


--------------------
Word to your mom.

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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: deCypher]
    #11393839 - 11/05/09 08:26 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

shit... :lol:


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #11393849 - 11/05/09 08:27 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

NIHILISM-"That life has no inherent meaning, and all events are happening because they can."

Well we will have to disagree:thumbup:

I believe the above. Yet I create meaning for myself because it pleases me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11393882 - 11/05/09 08:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Like I said, existentialists also believe that life has no inherent meaning and that all events are happening because they can.  However they also believe in the individual creating his or her own meaning.

Of course what's really in a name, anyway?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11393885 - 11/05/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You are the only true Nihilist because you deny the meaning of Nihilism itself.

:super:


--------------------
Word to your mom.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #11393892 - 11/05/09 08:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
You are the only true Nihilist because you deny the meaning of Nihilism itself.




:rofl:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: deCypher]
    #11393904 - 11/05/09 08:34 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Like I said, existentialists also believe that life has no inherent meaning and that all events are happening because they can.  However they also believe in the individual creating his or her own meaning.

Of course what's really in a name, anyway?





Of course:thumbup: I think of existentialism as a good psychology. But really I'm just looking into these labels for the first time.:shrug: I know what I am but don't know for sure what to call it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: deCypher]
    #11393909 - 11/05/09 08:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
You are the only true Nihilist because you deny the meaning of Nihilism itself.




:rofl:





I choose to be proud of that.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #11393979 - 11/05/09 08:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Ok then, so how can you tell a Nihilist from a non-Nihilist. If a Nihilist can be someone who agrees with cultural moral values, that would then go against your definition.

I don't think that's what a nihilist is.

A nihilist is someone who believes that existence is meaningless. Based on the preponderance of (non)evidence, I provisionally fall into that camp, pending my finding some new evidence to change my mind.

But I still help my neighbor, give to the poor, volunteer civically, and never cause harm if I can help it.

Why? I've asked myself that question. My best answer is that evolution has hard-wired me to behave like that. Over millennia, cooperative humans have had a survival edge (cooperating groups can kill more and bigger food animals than loners) that has been amplified and wired into most human brains, including mine.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Diploid]
    #11393998 - 11/05/09 08:48 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

I guess this really must be an interesting thread.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineRealized
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11394077 - 11/05/09 08:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Nihilism - The rejection of objective truth, Belief in nothing, that all values are purely subjective. That everything exists in nothing or is essentially nothing. Basically the rejection of objective truth and belief in nothing is the simple definition. Its pretty simple really, the simplest thing that exists.... or doesn't :smile:



On a side note, this thread really makes me want to post this song.

name=


--------------------
“The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence” - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Change my mind so much I can't even trust it. My mind changes me so much I can't even trust myself."

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11394133 - 11/05/09 09:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

A nihilist is someone who believes that existence is meaningless. Based on the preponderance of (non)evidence, I provisionally fall into that camp, pending my finding some new evidence to change my mind.





I think we've clearly what a Nihilist is. But I don't think we have made it clear what a Nihilist is not.

According to wikipedia, a Nihilism "argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."

Also according to wikipedia, Existentialism "maintains that the individual solely has the responsibilities of giving one's own life meaning and living that life passionately and sincerely"



By looking at these two definitions....a person who determines their own life meaning...IS an Existentialist.

A person who says that life (theirs or anyone elses) has a meaning....IS NOT a Nihilist.

I dunno if this clears anything up. :shrug:


--------------------
Word to your mom.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Realized]
    #11394145 - 11/05/09 09:08 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Can't really make out the lyrics.:sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11394160 - 11/05/09 09:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Fuck yeah, I used to play NIN all the time back when I was an angsty teen.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11394176 - 11/05/09 09:13 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Breeze still carries the sound
Maybe I'll disappear
Tracks will fade in the snow
You won't find me here

Ice is starting to form
Ending what had begun
I am locked in my head
With what I've done
I know you tried to rescue me
Didn't let anyone get in
Left with a trace of all that was
And all that could have been

Please
Take this
And run far away
Far away from me
I am
Tainted
The two of us
Were never meant to be
All these
Pieces
And promises and left behinds
If only I could see
In my
Nothing
You meant everything
Everything to me
Gone fading everything
And all that could have been

Gone.. fading..
Everything..
And..
All that..
Ccould have been..

Please
Take this
And run far away
Far as you can see
I am
Tainted
And happiness and peace of mind
Were never meant for me
All these
Pieces
And promises and left behinds
If only I could see
In my
Nothing
You meant everything
Everything to me


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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