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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)...
    #11381441 - 11/04/09 03:53 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

to be fair..i havent read ayn rand...but if this really is what she was advocating..then she is fucken *sick*...in either case..the following seems to have become the de facto gospel in this country.. and america will meet with the same stickid end as rand if we continue to make it our religion ..


http://www.slate.com/id/2233966/

Quote:

For her longest novel, Atlas Shrugged (1957), Rand returned to a moment from her childhood. Just as her father once went on strike to protest against Bolshevism, she imagined the super-rich in America going on strike against progressive taxation—and said the United States would swiftly regress to an apocalyptic hellhole if the Donald Trumps and Ted Turners ceased their toil. The abandoned masses are described variously as "savages," "refuse," "inanimate objects," and "imitations of living beings," picking through rubbish. One of the strikers deliberately causes a train crash, and Rand makes it clear she thinks the murder victims deserved it, describing in horror how they all supported the higher taxes that made the attack necessary.




Quote:

She said the United States should be a "democracy of superiors only," with superiority defined by being rich. Well, we got it. As the health care crisis has shown, today, the rich have the real power: The vote that matters is expressed with a checkbook and a lobbyist. We get to vote only for the candidates they have pre-funded and receive the legislation they have preapproved. It's useful—if daunting—to know that there is a substantial slice of the American public who believe this is not a problem to be put right, but morally admirable.




http://www.alternet.org/politics/143624/glenn_beck_peddles_populism_for_rich_guys


Quote:

In his own way, Beck is tapping into the American tradition of rich-guy populism where wealthy elites portray themselves as noble victims of a tyrannical government hell-bent on taking their hard-earned money and giving it to unworthy poor people.  Novelist Ayn Rand is primarily responsible for creating the modern incarnation of rich-guy populism, as her books portrayed productive capitalists pitched in a constant struggle against governments, unions and other organizations that inhibited their ability to have a limitless income.  In Rand’s calculus, one was either a “rational being” motivated by one’s own self-interest to be productive and make money; or a “suicidal animal” who only survived by sponging off the work of the producers.  Rand was fond of describing such “unproductive” people as “looters” and “parasites incapable of survival, who exist by destroying those who are capable, those who are pursuing a course of action proper to man.”




--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/04/09 02:39 PM)


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Offlineshaggy101
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11381575 - 11/04/09 05:16 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

wow man,
im fo sho
not the guy to debate by quotes of authors..

but give her a shot man.

I have read most of her fiction and it is pretty sweet.

as far as non-fiction
I find most of her "extreme"
ideas she specifically lines out that they are only ideas on the edge that she was more willing to put out there as scientific hypothesis,
more so than actual philosophical or political ideals to be employed.

she was definitely a tough chick,
sickened by a youth of socialistic BS
she advocated personal ideals over group ideals as her main philosophy.

man I apologize

for my generalizations I will come back and address your specifics
when im less buzzed on boozcahol :smile:..eh

but I do suggest you give her a chance and at least read the short story Anthem

and if you enjoy it move on to The Fountainhead
and eventually the (1600 dam some page) Atlas Shrugged

Of course ive got my own damn beef with the bitch for her overly perfect "heroes"
and IMHO damn lack of balance and realism in her fictitious reflective realms of reality..

maybe try Ayn Rand, The Virtues of Selfishness

if your only into non-fiction 

meh,
at some points she says only legitimate tax payers should have equal rights in a court of law (which rightfully we must admit is somewhat rational being that it does cost capital to hold court..)

but again I highly suggest you read her works before you critique her.


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11381606 - 11/04/09 05:35 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

That was just a liberal smear job. Read some Rand then get back to me.


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Offlineshaggy101
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11381664 - 11/04/09 06:17 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

damn that post didnt go thru

eh

anywho RationalEgo-

have you ever read The Virtue of Selfishness?


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Posts: 2,071
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: shaggy101]
    #11381679 - 11/04/09 06:29 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shaggy101 said:
damn that post didnt go thru

eh

anywho RationalEgo-

have you ever read The Virtue of Selfishness?




Yes, its an awesome book. I recommend it highly.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11381783 - 11/04/09 07:33 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

to be fair..i havent read ayn rand...




Imagine my amazement.

Quote:

...but if this really is what she was advocating..then she is fucken *sick*...




The Slate quotes are a greater distortion than the second source's nonsense (to the point of being out-and-out lies, actually) but both are ridiculous smear jobs, as you would recognize if you had read Rand.

Quote:

She said the United States should be a "democracy of superiors only," with superiority defined by being rich.




Ummm.... no. She never said that. Ayn Rand was most emphatically not a fan of any kind of democracy (majority rule), nor was she a fan of "the rich" qua "the rich".

It is patently obvious that just like our dear Anna, neither of the two loons linked here have read Rand either, and are instead spinning their own fantasies about what she wrote based on what others (who also may never have read her) have claimed she wrote, in turn based on what other-others have claimed, etc.

Rand certainly had her flaws, but lack of clarity of expression was never one of them. Some of the fairest criticism leveled against her is her tendency to sometimes belabor a point till the reader groans, "enough, already! We get it!" How anyone can actually read what she wrote, then produce such a massive distortion (sometimes almost to the point of 180 degree inversion) of these clearly-expressed ideas, has baffled me for three and a half decades now. 



Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: Phred]
    #11381852 - 11/04/09 08:11 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Phred, am I right to assume that you are an advocate of Rand's philosophy?

I did not think that such a moderator would exist on this forum.

How pleasing.

:smile:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11381913 - 11/04/09 08:39 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Her philosophy is incomplete, and her treatment of one of philosophy's main branches - aesthetics - is pretty arbitrary, but then, so is everyone else's. Also, when she ventures into the realms of psychology rather than philosophy, she has to be taken with a large grain of salt.

But when it comes to all the rest, her treatment of metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, and politics is unassailable. I have tried very hard for about three decades now to find a contradiction or unfounded assertion in her treatment of those areas, and failed. I can't say that about the work of any other philosopher, Aristotle included.

Her epistemological work on concept formation is original, ground-breaking, and brilliant, but it is really the only original philosophical work she did, to the best of my knowledge. But her real genius was not in the discovery of new philosophical concepts, but in her winnowing of existing philosophical theories. She managed to identify the best of the best, the truest of the true, from sources as diverse as Aristotle and Nietsche and Locke, and integrate them into a comprehensive, non-contradictory, seamless hierarchy built from first principles layer by layer which eventually embraces everything from the nature of money to the nature of love.

Rand was not the first philosopher to note the vast gap between the "primacy of consciousness" metaphysical worldview and the "primacy of existence" worldview, but she certainly is the best at explaining the repercussions of the dichotomy and how it is the fundamental starting point for all else philosophical. The same can be said of everything else she espoused - she wasn't the first to promote Capitalism as a socio-economic system, but she explained why it is the only moral system better than even Locke or Bastiat. Every higher-level concept she explains is completely, thouroughly, and non-contradictorily validated by the previous base, which is validated by its base, all the way down to the level where the only test of validity is ostensive.

Like all geniuses, she had her quirks, some of them amusing, some of them distressing. While I find her life story fascinating, it doesn't interest me anywhere near as much as her ideas

While I enjoyed both The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, her major appeal to me has always been her non-fiction essays. And, of course, her brilliant book on concept formation, Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. It is much heavier going than the rest of her non-fiction writings, since it was written for a specialized audience rather than the public at large, but if you have a solid grasp of the vocabulary and understand going in that you'll need to do more than  just skim through the material in a few days, it is well worth the read.




Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: Phred]
    #11381925 - 11/04/09 08:45 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
her major appeal to me has always been her non-fiction essays. And, of course, her brilliant book on concept formation,




Sounds interesting, I'll keep my eyes open.
Never been intrigued to try her fiction, the people that seem to like it don't necessarily share my tastes, if you see what I mean.
But this sounds different, a new approach. Thanks! :thumbup:


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: Phred]
    #11382027 - 11/04/09 09:30 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Excellent Phred.

I have only been studying and implementing her philosophy now for the past 2 years or so. I have not studied much of her aesthetics, so I would not know much about that.

How would you view her philosophy as 'incomplete'? Is it only becuase of your disagreement with that branch that you would consider it so?

Also Rand only admitted to having a philosophical 'debt' to Aristotle. What is your view on that?

I completely agree with taking her 'psychological' positions with a pinch of salt, especially in relation to man qua man vs woman qua woman.


Edited by RationalEgo (11/04/09 09:36 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11382117 - 11/04/09 10:01 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

How would you view her philosophy as 'incomplete'?




Well... I was perhaps being a bit harsh, there.

I used the word "incomplete" because she does not address the origin of consciousness at all, as some philosophers attempt to do. She just accepts as a given that some of the entities which exist within the universe which we perceive possess the attribute of consciousness, and proceeds from there. Same, for that matter, with the issue of "life". She doesn't even try to guess why some entities are alive and some are not, she just notes the obvious - some entities are alive, and thus must be treated differently philosophically (and practically) than entities which are not.

Quote:

Also Rand only admitted to having a philosophical 'debt' to Aristotle. What is your view on that?




Her philosophy is fundamentally Aristotelian, stripped of Aristotle's (admittedly few) contradictions and mystical aspects. Even though my guess is that she probably incorporated ideas from Locke and Bastiat rather than deriving them independently (reinventing the wheel), ultimately Locke and Bastiat (and others) based their philosophy on Aristotelian principles as well. And I may be wrong... it is entirely possible she never read a word of Locke or Bastiat. After all, their ideas logically follow from the fundamental base principles espoused by Aristotle. If Locke and Bastiat were able to come up with them independent of one another, certainly it is not impossible for Rand to have done the same. 






Phred


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11386397 - 11/04/09 08:28 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

shaggy101 said:
damn that post didnt go thru

eh

anywho RationalEgo-

have you ever read The Virtue of Selfishness?




Yes, its an awesome book. I recommend it highly.




maybe you cant judge a book from the title.. but a title like that is telling me that maybe my lynx arent just smear jobs either...and whether or not the lynx accurately represent what ayn rand said.. are they nevertheless still representative of the american political mainstream?...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/04/09 09:54 PM)


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11387490 - 11/04/09 10:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

shaggy101 said:
damn that post didnt go thru

eh

anywho RationalEgo-

have you ever read The Virtue of Selfishness?




Yes, its an awesome book. I recommend it highly.




maybe you cant judge a book from the title.. but a title like that is telling me that maybe my lynx arent just smear jobs either...and whether or not the lynx accurately represent what ayn rand said.. are they nevertheless still representative of the american political mainstream?...





They are just smear jobs.

Do not sink to the cowardly level of intellectual and moral midgetry by sanctioning these idiots.

Perhaps you should actually go away and read before making further comment else you embarrass yourself further.

FYI the first four pages of the introduction of the book are concerned with the title.

Also, Rand's moral views are in no way representative of mainstream politics. That was a ludicrous question.


Edited by RationalEgo (11/04/09 11:09 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11387893 - 11/04/09 11:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Also, Rand's moral views are in no way representative of mainstream politics. That was a ludicrous question.




the question was if the links are representative of mainstream politics.. not rands moral views (unless they happen to concur)...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11387953 - 11/04/09 11:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Also, Rand's moral views are in no way representative of mainstream politics. That was a ludicrous question.




the question was if the links are representative of mainstream politics.. not rands moral views




Smear jobs are certainly representative of mainstream politics, if thats what you mean.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: ayn rand ..the perverse allure of a deranged woman (SLATE)... [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11388074 - 11/05/09 12:16 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)



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