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Offlinelgm0420
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Spawning to Bulk contam problems
    #11376558 - 11/03/09 02:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Hi Everyone,

Alright, so i have been cultivating for a while now, and I've had mild success with bulk substrates, which is really what I've concentrated on over the last year or so.  Although I've had success, I've had plenty of failure, and all at the same place in my process.  I have no problem spawning to grain, or getting a solid pin set in my greenhouse set up.  However, while spawning my grain to bulk i have run into multiple issues with contams.  Ive been trying to problem solve on my own, but I'm not having too much success spotting the problem/s, and I'm losing about 3 out of every 4 trays to contams before i can case them and set them in the green house.  Needless to say its gettin pretty demoralizing and expensive.

Once i have a solid amount of grain spawned, i have been using this tech for creating and pasteurizing my bulk.  I have a feeling that i might be running into issues here, so if anyone has a more successful or definite means of pasteurizing bulk coir please share! :smile:

I have been taking this bulk and mixing it at a 4:1 ratio in tin trays.  Covering with a cover with multiple holes drilled into it and covered with micro pore tape for Gas Exchange.  I do the bulk spawn in a room that has been OUST bombed and leave to sit for about 10 mins.  Use gloves, rubbing alcohol and cover the ac, and the crack under the door to try and alleviate any drafts.  I do the transfer to bulk as quick as possible, and cover asap.

I leave them sitting in an open room, covered.  The room normally sits around 70 degrees F.  I dabbled with putting a space heater in the room, but it only seemed to slow my colonization.  On average, when i have a tray avoid contams, it takes about 10 days to recolonize the bulk.  After, i do my casing, and blah blah blah, but the problem is in this step.  75% of the time I'm getting contams before the bulk fully recolonizes.

Below are pictures of my trays, the room, and the contams i have been getting on my trays, which seem to be the same every time.



The picture of the contam is much worse than i normally would let it get... it sat around for a good week before i could get a hold of a camera... i usually toss it after the first sign of green, and normally that puffy white contam as well.

I'm really tired of having this happen, and wasting money and time...  Perhaps its the room I'm using to transfer to bulk?  I don't have many rooms in the house that are low on drafts... What if i set up a small area with plastic floor to ceiling, OUST bombed that small make shift room, any input on whether that would help?

Any and all ideas and comments are appreciated everyone, I'm tired of these contams!


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Offlinegornyhuy
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: lgm0420]
    #11376609 - 11/03/09 02:20 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

RR summarizes his pasteurization tek here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5132611#Post5132611

Its for poo in this case, but I think applies to any bulk substrate.

Quote:

For small amounts, I always pasteurize in a large pot on the stove with the manure in quart mason jars. Get your substrate to field moisture level, then load the jars. I don't use lids, but just wrap aluminum foil over the top of the jars. Set them in the pot of COLD water and make sure the water goes at least 2/3 of the way up the jars. Put a plate with a weight on top if necessary to keep the jars from floating. Turn on the stove and bring the water to a boil. Let boil for five minutes, then shut off the stove and put the lid on the pot. Leave the jars to sit for two hours, then remove and use whenever they cool down. If you use this procedure, the temperature in the center of the jar will not exceed 160F, but will be above 140 for over an hour. It works perfectly for me.
RR




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OfflineHuMe35
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: lgm0420]
    #11376670 - 11/03/09 02:31 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

First off, I would use a trash bag liner.  It will help keep condensation off your sub.  Give it a try.  You can use foil too although sometimes the mycelium will burn through it.  Also, make sure you get the sub to proper field capacity. 

Second, try a higher spawn ratio.  If you use 1:2, 1:3, then you can see if it is the bulk that is contaminating or if it is the grain prep. 

What grain are you using and what tek?


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InvisibleShaggy Shaman
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: HuMe35]
    #11376727 - 11/03/09 02:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Going to a higher spawn ratio was what I was thinking, too.  Try the 1:2 ratio next time just to see what happens.


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: Shaggy Shaman]
    #11376850 - 11/03/09 02:58 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shaggy Shaman said:
Going to a higher spawn ratio was what I was thinking, too.  Try the 1:2 ratio next time just to see what happens.





yup 1:2 ratio.  I use 6qt trays with 2 qts spawn and 4qts bulk substrate covered in foil with the tray lid on that.


fewer GE holes in the cover also.  try maybe 2-3 holes.  I dont use any GE holes cus the foil cover and tray lid dont seal air tight so they allow for plenty of GE.


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Offlinelgm0420
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11376906 - 11/03/09 03:06 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

ALright, so higher ratio, 1:2, i will absolutely do that. 

Trashbag liner? are you saying on top of my substrate, but underneath my tin lid?

And ill definetly lower the number of holes in the lid for GE...

As for grain prep i use RR's rye / coffee tek


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Offlinelgm0420
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: lgm0420]
    #11376920 - 11/03/09 03:07 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I definetly have a problem with condensation building up on my bulk though before full colonization... last time i tried dabbing it up with a paper towel... big mistake, just helped the contams flourish and spread at an incredible rate


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OfflineBrennus
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: lgm0420]
    #11376961 - 11/03/09 03:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

If your trays are going bad before the first flush, you probably have bad spawn. Make sure to give each jar a good sniff before spawning.


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: Brennus]
    #11376994 - 11/03/09 03:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Trashbag liner? are you saying on top of my substrate, but underneath my tin lid?




no, line the tray with it b4 you mix your spawn/sub and put it in so condensation is in between the tray and bag liner instead of your sub and tray.  excess moisture will harbor contams.:stoned:


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Offlinelgm0420
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11377453 - 11/03/09 04:29 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

i have a big problem with the condensation settling ontop of the substrate... is there anyway to get rid of this problem?


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: lgm0420]
    #11377511 - 11/03/09 04:38 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

maybe your tray lids need to be wiped with alcohol b4 you put them on or the trays arent clean enough.  just thinking outloud :shrug:

usualy as I put the trays into fruiting conditions the substrate soaks/uses up the moisture thats present. :smirk: 

fanning your substrate is the prefered method for evaporating excess moisture or more FAE. 

FAE will help with the mold issue some also but only if your sub is fully colonized.  maybe your leaving them colonize a couple days to long and mold is getting to it.  idk?

your going to have to pinpoint the step when contams are introduced to fix that issue.


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Offlinelgm0420
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11377641 - 11/03/09 04:59 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, fanning is a good idea, but im talkin about before i introduce FAE...  ill check on the bulk when its colonizing and ill have water building on the surface... anyone have advice on avoiding this? or how to deal with the issue?


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: lgm0420]
    #11378706 - 11/03/09 07:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ill check on the bulk when its colonizing and ill have water building on the surface... anyone have advice on avoiding this? or how to deal with the issue?




that is your contam and build up problem right there.:stoned:


your not supposed to expose colonizing or uncolonized substrate to air at all.  if your checking them your contaming them when you look at it and the myc is producing metabolites creating build up in your substrate surface. 

use plastic wrap or clear plastic for your cover so you dont have to open and expose it to dirty air.  oust doesnt get all the airborn crap.

not only that exposure to fae by opening to check is introducing pinning triggers too early and will give you uneven and poor pinsets and giving you a slow but long continuous flush instead of a nice canopy of mushies you can harvest all at once so you can dunk and wait for flush #2.


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InvisibleJitsu
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11378986 - 11/03/09 08:21 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

His contaminations have nothing to do with condensation on the lid of a colonizing bulk substrate.

Based on those pictures I would have to agree that your spawn is bad. I see no mushroom mycelium in that tray, which leads me to believe there is a problem with either your sterile technique whilst preparing spawn, or your inoculation procedure prior to spawning.

If you are absolutely convinced your spawn is good, try cleaning the trays out with a simple soap and water solution. It's actually difficult to contaminate Coir(which I assume you are using seeing that you are using Large_dose's tech).

Another tip to help avoid contamination while spawning to a bulk substrate is to never have your grains exposed on the surface of your substrate.

Since that tray has sporulated (and so have your past ones I assume) you may have a mold problem in your house due to the sporulation.

Oust, Lysol or other house hold sanitizers should never be used in Mycology. There is no need for them. There's almost no need for alcohol.


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Do not deny the classical approach, simply as a reaction, or you will have created another pattern and trapped yourself there.

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Edited by Jitsu (11/03/09 08:22 PM)


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Offlinelgm0420
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: Jitsu]
    #11379736 - 11/03/09 10:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Alright, welll... jitsu, do you think that the clear wrap under the tin lid is a good idea?

Im pretty confident that my spawn tek is not the problem, im pressuring cooking all my jars and bags at 15 psi for 90 - 120 mins...  inoculation and g2g is all carried out in a glove box.  I never have contams in my jars, i had contams once in my bags, but 99% of the time, no contams in bags either.

As for the picture with contams, its been overrun at this point with the contam.  The bulk was about 60% - 70% colonized when the first sign of contams popped up.  After i tried gettin some excess water off the top of the bulk, it just spread like wild fire.  I kept it covered and let it go while waiting for a camera to capture the essence of what im coming up against.

Is there anything that i can do to get my mold spores under control?  Ill definetly cover up any grain on top next time i spawn to bulk, because i normally have grains exposed on the surface.  So if Oust, lysol, alochol, etc. don't serve much of a purpose, do you have any teks to spawn to bulk that show a good example of how it should be done properly?


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InvisibleJitsu
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: lgm0420]
    #11380550 - 11/04/09 12:20 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I layer my substrate when I am spawning and steam pasteurize my bulk substrate for 1 hour at 170F.

Make a log next time in your journal and document all the steps and procedures you are doing. Other than that it's going to be very difficult to pin point the exact problem.

Your techniques could very well be totally fine. It may just be a mold problem in the house.


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Do not deny the classical approach, simply as a reaction, or you will have created another pattern and trapped yourself there.

How I get my Pinsets
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Offlinelgm0420
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: Jitsu]
    #11380696 - 11/04/09 12:44 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

by steam pastuerizing, you mean....  how can i go about doing that? pressure cooker?


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OfflineKidwonder
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: Jitsu]
    #11380697 - 11/04/09 12:44 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Could you post a picture of your jars so we can take a look at it?

I agree with that it is probably with your spawn. 

I could almost spit in my casings and they still would grow.

I pasteurize my coir with a hot air oven.

I prepare the coir with hp and oyster shell(for ph).

I put the prepared mixture in a tall pan that hold 2 to 3 gallons of water.

I put foil over the top of the pan and stick a cooking thermometer in the top.

I put in the air oven at full temp.(broil)

It takes about an 2 hours to heat up to 140 I keep it at it for another hour till it reaches 165 to 170 and turn it off. I let it cool over night then a casing I will go.



The air oven also utilities dry heat for sterilization. The material is put at 160°C for a period of two hours to kill the bacterial spores and other microbial structures.
This is good for glass, metals, powders, ect.. kick ass autoclave.


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OfflineKidwonder
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: Kidwonder]
    #11380793 - 11/04/09 12:59 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

btw I do not know what you are growing but my shit slows down at a crawl at 70.
It should be at 78 to 88 then dropped to 72 to 78.


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InvisibleJitsu
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Re: Spawning to Bulk contam problems [Re: Kidwonder]
    #11380799 - 11/04/09 01:00 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Find a way that works for you.

When I first started, I just filled my PC with water, brought it to a boil and tossed the brick in. I took it off the heat and let it sit with the lid on and the weight on until it was below 85F.

Now I use steam tables to pasteurize. They go for about $200 where I live. And that's with a restaurant owners card...


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Do not deny the classical approach, simply as a reaction, or you will have created another pattern and trapped yourself there.

How I get my Pinsets
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