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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness
#11365327 - 11/01/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Suppose we accept that happiness ought to be our primary goal in life. How best to achieve this state? It seems apparent that both the fulfillment and the abolition of our desires is correlated to our level of happiness; we become happier when we satisfy a particular goal of ours and we eliminate the chance of becoming unhappier when we stop caring whether or not we satisfy a particular goal of ours. But which specific goals are the most conducive towards producing happiness? Studies have shown that attaining material possessions only temporarily increase one's level of happiness for about six months or so, and that after this it decreases right back to its original level. Having a higher income is also correlated here, but only to a certain point after which the richer are no happier. Some say that doing what you love and satisfying the healthy desires of your soul is key to contentment; others in the Buddhist tradition say that renouncing all attachment to desire brings you into Nirvana. Is it better to influence external reality with Will to satisfy your goals or is it better to influence internal reality with Thought until the external world doesn't matter anymore and has no effect on your happiness? Epictetus, a leading Stoic, echoes this latter philosophy in the quotes "Do not seek to bring things to pass in accordance with your wishes, but wish for them as they are, and you will find them," and "Freedom is not procured by a full enjoyment of what is desired, but by controlling the desire." Can this truly be correct, though? Suppose we were a slave imprisoned in a cell; should we aim to break out of the cell and find happiness in freedom or rather find acceptance and peace in our situation?
Are we truly satisfied only when we undergo the basic biological drives of our inner animal (to survive, find a mate, and reproduce to have a family) or do these attachments and the possibility of their breakage only lead to heart-break and misery? Alternatively, if we satisfy these basic biological drives then what else can we do to increase our level of happiness? Is it better to have loved and lost than never have loved at all? Is the person who chooses to satisfy his or her desire doomed to an eternity of Samsara, or is the person who chooses to eliminate his or her desire doomed to a meaningless, accomplishment-less existence? Who will lead a more satisfied life; the Magician who alters the objective universe to reflect back happiness or the Mystic who alters the subjective realm to prevent unhappiness? Or do both paths work equally well? What about pleasure; is this synonymous with happiness and if so why shouldn't we hypothetically implant an electrode in our reward center and stimulate it until the end of days? If not, then how often should we satisfy our desire for pleasure? A common saying states that ignorance is bliss; is this true and if we can't tell then should we seek to satisfy our desire for knowledge knowing that it may doom us to unhappiness? Does ultimate happiness only come with 'Union with God' which is the culmination of the Great Work of both mysticism and magick? If so, then which route is preferable to obtain this?
Your thoughts?
1. Which desires, if any, should we satisfy in order to increase our level of happiness? 2. Which desires, if any, should we abolish in order to decrease our level of unhappiness? 3. How should we go about satisfying and/or abolishing these desires in the most efficient way possible?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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jivJaN
yes


Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: deCypher]
#11365771 - 11/01/09 09:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Its kind of hard to look at a cat and say its happy.We can observe it , offer it a treat and come to a conclusion that it offers some sort of satisfaction merely by the fact that it indulged in the offering. But what if it is a poisonous treat ?
I think that before we can conclude our own happiness or lack of , we first need to take into account the agent experiencing it. "I am happy"
See.. this statement alone tells something about me, not happiness itself , if such a thing exists objectively at all.
THEN.. we go back a lil bit and say wait.. but.. do i exist as an objective thing ? Why does the word 'object' imply something we agree on , when we never really do ? So I (whoever that is) conclude.. that who we are is nothing more than an opinion. We could even say that it is judgment. From this opinion.. we go on to evaluate our surroundings and form opinions on them as well. Once this is done.. we nit the two together and form an opinion on whether we are satisfied with relationship.
So i dont think its one or the other. I think its both.
How we look at the internal universe , does greatly impact the way we see the external, and i do in fact believe that they affect each other. Whether we believe we are happy or not, depends on the opinion we hold of ourselves compared to the opinion we hold of our surroundings and how these two opinions work with each other in our minds.
As it has been said many times.. I believe that balance is the key.
I think you might enjoy this. If you do.. try and find the movie. Its called "Before Sunset" starring the two lovebirds that we're in bed in the movie "Waking life" The whole movie.. they just talk about things like this.. I loved it.
Quote:
Céline: Well, for example, I was working for this organization that helped villages in Mexico. And their concerns was how to get the pencils sent to the kid in these little country schools. I was not about big revolutionary ideas, it was about pencils. I see the people that do the real work and what's really sad, in a way, is that...the people that are the most giving, hard working and capable of making this world better, usually don't have the ego and ambition to be a leader. They don't see any interest in superficial rewards, they don't care if...if their name ever appear in the press. They actually enjoy the process of helping others, they're in the moment.
Jesse: Yeah, but that's so hard! You know, to be in the moment. I just feel like I'm...designed to be slightly dissatisfied with everything. You know? I mean, like...always trying to better my situation. You know, I satisfy one desire, and it just... agitates another, you know? Then I think, to hell with it, right? I mean, desire is the fuel of life, I mean, do you think it's true that if we never wanted anything, we'd never be unhappy?
Céline: I don't know... Not wanting anything, isn't that... a symptom of depression? Yeah, that is, right? I mean, it's healthy to desire, right?
Jesse: Yeah... I don't know, I mean, it's what all those Buddhist guys say, right? You know, liberate yourself from desire and you'll find that you already have everything you need.
Céline: Yeah, but I feel really alive when I want something more than just basic survival needs. I mean, wanting whether it's intimacy with another person, or a new pair of shoes, is kind of beautiful. I like that we have those ever-renewing desires.
Jesse: Well, maybe it's just a sense of entitlement. You know, like whenever you feel like you deserve that new pair of shoes, you know. It's OK to want things as long as you don't get pissed off if you don't get 'em. Right? Life's hard. It's supposed to be. If we didn't suffer, we wouldn't learn a thing, you know?
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--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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jivJaN
yes


Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: jivJaN]
#11365774 - 11/01/09 09:40 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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oh yea.. Good to see you back
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--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: jivJaN]
#11365938 - 11/01/09 10:03 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, I think to get to the source of happiness the internal route is of necessity.
I have found that the external is a projection - a reflection of some inner condition. Attempts to find happiness in the external would be analogous to falling in love with a mirror image, a phantom. I think a search for Magick, perhaps like a Aleister Crowley (who I won't pretend to know much about), is to propagate the ego mind - which is a base of operation where true "happiness" can never be found.
It may be hard for the Ego mind to understand this, that "I" is "You" is "All" This is why the meditative traditions would go as far to rid oneself of the ego, of thoughts themselves. You find a place of operation deep within being, where the external begins to flow with you because ultimately it is one and the same with you.
When the Mystic gains Magick, there is no longer any desire to use such a thing.
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: deCypher]
#11366008 - 11/01/09 10:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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As far as desires go, I'd say the easiest to abolish would be material desires. I'd say this is something I have been gifted coming into this life to have less of a struggle with than the average American.
I still have the desire for personal betterment. The desire to be accepted and loved by others. The desire to overcome my fears and break free of my personally constructed limitations. Do these desires hinder or do I draw on them for strength? I'm not sure. Perhaps delving deeper into zen Buddhism will show me if I can be "happier" without these.
As far as your third question is concerned, the most efficient way to satisfy or rid oneself of desires would be mental training to control ones thoughts, which is encompassed in various methods of meditation. If you consider a desire to be a problem, you could stop it at it's source.
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Kickle
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: deCypher]
#11366578 - 11/02/09 12:31 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
1. Which desires, if any, should we satisfy in order to increase our level of happiness? 2. Which desires, if any, should we abolish in order to decrease our level of unhappiness? 3. How should we go about satisfying and/or abolishing these desires in the most efficient way possible?
1. All, if possible. Since it isn't possible... no matter what... one needs to find the path of least resistance in their failures. There are a lot of ways to do so... I personally lean on religious teachings as my guides. Native religions for interactions with nature and dreaming. Christianity for my social cues within the United States. Buddhism as a counter to anxiety provoking situations, etc.
2. I suppose those which have the greatest potential to create burdensome failures. Those which, if failure should be met, eat up too many resources and time which could be better spent achieving a different goal. Or if the probability of failure to achieve the desire is greater than the probability for success, it is clearly in your best interest to choose a desire which is more prone to success than failure. There are enough desires out there that it shouldn't be a problem to selectively choose.
3. Constantly adapt. Don't resist changes... adapt to them.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#11367480 - 11/02/09 07:02 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said: As it has been said many times.. I believe that balance is the key.
I'd have to say I agree; the Middle Path and moderation seem like the best options overall. I'll make sure to check out Before Sunset though as that quote very closely parallels my current thoughts on the subject.
Quote:
jivJaN said: oh yea.. Good to see you back 
Thanks! I recently came out of a long, dark night of the soul and have been feeling better than ever. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? 
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Well, I think to get to the source of happiness the internal route is of necessity.
I have found that the external is a projection - a reflection of some inner condition. Attempts to find happiness in the external would be analogous to falling in love with a mirror image, a phantom.
So in the case of the slave, you would prefer to remain imprisoned and meditating to change your mental state as opposed to escaping to find freedom? This just seems counter-intuitive; I would agree that to find happiness one should start with the internal route but it still seems as though I can become even happier if I make a few adjustments to the external world. Retreating wholly into the mind seems like avoidance; why should we exercise Compassion for our neighbors when they suffer from an aggressor if all they have to do is change their attitude about their suffering?
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: I think a search for Magick, perhaps like a Aleister Crowley (who I won't pretend to know much about), is to propagate the ego mind - which is a base of operation where true "happiness" can never be found.
Ironically Aleister Crowley died as a lonely heroin addict, but the entire goal of his system of Magick was to eventually rid yourself of the Ego and become One with God. Mysticism has a similar goal but is more direct AFAIK.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: deCypher]
#11367672 - 11/02/09 08:33 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, freeing oneself of the prison of the mind should take precedence over any external constraints.
Let me also note that this process goes at the pace is needs to go at. If one finds themself in prison, they should look at it as a catalyst to this process. I guess I'm turning into a determinist.
Edited by c0sm0nautt (11/02/09 09:45 AM)
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lavod
Seal Whisperer


Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5,446
Loc: Over the rainbow
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: deCypher]
#11367961 - 11/02/09 09:47 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ironically Aleister Crowley died as a lonely heroin addict
Of curious note, a little known fact is that Crowley died a week into withdrawal from his very serious habit. His doctor cut him off leading Crowley to allegedly place a curse on the doctor which would have him follow the beast to the grave should he die. Crowley very well could have been one of the few people, likely prompted by his age and general poor health in '47, to kick the bucket on account of complications from heroin withdrawal. Anyway, the doctor DID, in fact, die a few hours after Crowley!
Sorry, I do'nt have the ambition to contribute anything to the general line of questioning right now.
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stzacrack
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Registered: 05/07/05
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: lavod]
#11373845 - 11/02/09 11:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Simplicity = eternal happiness
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stzacrack
Stranger


Registered: 05/07/05
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Re: Magick vs. Mysticism: the Paradox of Desire and the Quest for Happiness [Re: stzacrack]
#11373862 - 11/02/09 11:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires = more desires...
ALL desire is illusion and all illusions are the products of our desires
simplicity
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