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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
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Loc: SF Bay Area
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deCypher said:
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Poid said: So you believe all atoms are conscious to some degree?
Yep.
May you explain why you believe this?
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deCypher said:
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Poid said:
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deCypher said: With regard to rocks, I would say they possess less consciousness than plants but they do not possess self-awareness, which so far as we can tell only humans have IMO.
Can you explain why you believe this?
Hmm. I don't know why I said only humans; if you go by the mirror test then it looks like great apes, bottlenose dolphins, orcas, elephants, and European magpies might also be self-aware. At any rate it seems as though there is a minority of organisms on Earth that possess self-awareness.
Where do you draw the line?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Dreams [Re: Poid]
#11375838 - 11/03/09 10:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, I could argue from the standpoint that if an atom does not possess any degree of consciousness whatsoever, then the sum of the consciousnesses of all the atoms comprising the brain would be 0 + 0 + ... 0 = 0. Yet since the brain does possess a certain level of consciousness, it seems quite likely that an atom would have to have a very small, yet existent level as well. Either that or atoms would have to exhibit some level of protoconsciousness, which I'm simply considering as a different degree of consciousness, or consciousness somehow emerges past a certain point of aggregation of non-conscious entities which I find much harder to make sense of. Look up panpsychism and panprotopsychism (esp. articles by the philosopher David Chalmers) if you're interested.
As far as drawing the line between self-awareness and non self-awareness, the mirror test appears to be fairly effective.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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deCypher said: Well, I could argue from the standpoint that if an atom does not possess any degree of consciousness whatsoever, then the sum of the consciousnesses of all the atoms comprising the brain would be 0 + 0 + ... 0 = 0.
The brain is a phenomenon which, for lack of a better term, produces consciousness; that is it's mechanism.
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deCypher said: Yet since the brain does possess a certain level of consciousness...
The brain itself does not possess consciousness, as far as I know, it only produces it.
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deCypher said: ...it seems quite likely that an atom would have to have a very small, yet existent level as well.
But the brain is not conscious, so this statement based on your earlier statement that the brain does possess consciousness is false.
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deCypher said: Either that or atoms would have to exhibit some level of protoconsciousness, which I'm simply considering as a different degree of consciousness. Look up panpsychism and panprotopsychism (esp. articles by the philosopher David Chalmers) if you're interested.
So you're basing all this on your assertion that the brain itself is conscious?
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deCypher said: As far as drawing the line between self-awareness and non self-awareness, the mirror test appears to be fairly effective.
But creatures who fail the mirror test consistently obviously possess consciousness; where do you draw the line between consciousness and "protoconsciousness"?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Dreams [Re: Poid]
#11375947 - 11/03/09 10:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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The brain is a material process that is somehow connected to consciousness; we can say that it either produces it or possesses the property of having it, but all we're trying to get at here is the connection. You're arguing terminology when nobody is really sure what the connection is between the mind and brain other than some sort of correlation. When I say possess, consider that identical to produce or whatever other word you want to insert... By saying the brain is conscious I am implying the same connection.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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deCypher said:
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c0sm0nautt said: I think our views differ in that I believe the brain is a temporary vehicle for consciousness in physical reality, and consciousness actually leaves the brain during astral projection to explore a somewhat objective reality.
Astral projectors still have the neurons in their brain firing while astrally projecting; the neural activity inherent in the physical correlate to consciousness never stops. Your subjective experience may well seem to be soaring through galaxies and into outer space, but for you to be able to see something while APing it is logically necessary for the neurons in your visual cortex to be firing in a specific way; the same way that they would fire were you to actually be witnessing a different physical location.
At the same time I think that it is quite likely that APers are, in fact, able to receive information and gain sensory experiences of things they couldn't possibly have gotten through ordinary means. The trick lies in explaining how these perceptions came to a conscious brain that never moved from its location in the APer's skull lying on a pillow, and I don't think neuroscience or philosophy is quite ready yet for that explanation.
Indeed the brain is still operating! This is where the mind-split comes in. The etheric body is a duplicate consciousness, you are quite literally projecting your consciousness to another form while your physical body continues to remain conciseness as well. This is why so many projectors have trouble remembering their experiences. You need some form of intent to integrate the memories of the OBE.
In the glossary of Astral Dynamics, Robert Bruce describes the mind-split as: "The splitting of conciseness into two identical parts that occurs during any type of OBE. The mind-split occurs at the beginning of any OBE, before the exit of the projected double out of its physical counterpart. There are two bodies during an OBE (one physical and one subtle or energetic - the projected double). Two minds (one physical and one energetic) therefor exist. Each of these function independently for the duration an OBE, until reentry occurs where they reintegrate, becoming one mind again."
The mind-split effect as: "In particular, the effects of the mind-split has on OBE recall. The commonly felt sensations of dual existence, of existing in more then one place at the same time, during an OBE. Also meaning the telepathic, energetic, and empathic interactions and conflicts that occur between the physical body/mind and its projected body/mind. Also see Astral Feedback, Complications of Consciousness, Energetic Conflicts, Memory Download."
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
deCypher said: The brain is a material process that is somehow connected to consciousness; we can say that it either produces it or possesses the property of having it, but all we're trying to get at here is the connection.
True.
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deCypher said: You're arguing terminology when nobody is really sure what the connection is between the mind and brain other than some sort of correlation.
Also true.
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deCypher said: When I say possess, consider that identical to produce or whatever other word you want to insert... By saying the brain is conscious I am implying the same connection.
So you're saying that, since nobody is absolutely sure about what the exact precise connection between consciousness and the brain is, this means that it's possible that the brain is conscious?
Or am I way off?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Dreams [Re: Poid]
#11378455 - 11/03/09 04:59 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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c0sm0nautt said: Indeed the brain is still operating! This is where the mind-split comes in. The etheric body is a duplicate consciousness, you are quite literally projecting your consciousness to another form while your physical body continues to remain conciseness as well. This is why so many projectors have trouble remembering their experiences. You need some form of intent to integrate the memories of the OBE.
Yeah, I like Bruce's descriptions of projection. I'm still quite puzzled as to how this works on the neuroscience side of things, though...
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Poid said: So you're saying that, since nobody is absolutely sure about what the exact precise connection between consciousness and the brain is, this means that it's possible that the brain is conscious?
I'm saying that 'the brain is conscious' / 'the brain possesses consciousness' / 'the brain produces consciousness' are all getting at the same exact unclear relationship.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
deCypher said:
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Poid said: So you're saying that, since nobody is absolutely sure about what the exact precise connection between consciousness and the brain is, this means that it's possible that the brain is conscious?
I'm saying that 'the brain is conscious' / 'the brain possesses consciousness' / 'the brain produces consciousness' are all getting at the same exact unclear relationship.
Can you clarify this unclear relationship?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (11/03/09 07:21 PM)
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
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Loc: The Astral Realm
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Yeah, I like Bruce's descriptions of projection. I'm still quite puzzled as to how this works on the neuroscience side of things, though...
I guess what it comes down to is the willingness to accept the apparent subjective proof that consciousness is not limited to the brain, bur rather the brain is a temporary vehicle. A leap of faith for one who puts all his weight in objective scientific proof. I think in the next few years science will take huge leaps once it starts incorporating consciousness, as opposed to simply correlating it to the objective vehicle.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Poid said: Can you clarify this unclear relationship?
Not yet.
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c0sm0nautt said: I guess what it comes down to is the willingness to accept the apparent subjective proof that consciousness is not limited to the brain, bur rather the brain is a temporary vehicle. .
Everything that we know about neuroscience points towards the functioning brain being necessary for consciousness. What evidence do you have that human consciousness can exist without it? Astral projection and out of body experiences all require metabolizing neurons to occur; it seems likely to me that most beliefs that we can survive death stem from fear over the dissolution of self.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
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Quote:
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c0sm0nautt said: I guess what it comes down to is the willingness to accept the apparent subjective proof that consciousness is not limited to the brain, bur rather the brain is a temporary vehicle. .
Everything that we know about neuroscience points towards the functioning brain being necessary for consciousness. What evidence do you have that human consciousness can exist without it? Astral projection and out of body experiences all require metabolizing neurons to occur; it seems likely to me that most beliefs that we can survive death stem from fear over the dissolution of self.
The diseased which projectors encounter No proof, a leap of faith. I don't think objective proof is possible - we all must find these answers for ourselves.
Edited by c0sm0nautt (11/03/09 08:06 PM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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The diseased? What do you mean?
I know objective proof isn't possible in these matters but I just see an overwhelming amount of evidence pointing towards our existence being temporally finite.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
deCypher said:
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Poid said: Can you clarify this unclear relationship?
Not yet.
This is the first time you've failed me.
It better be the last!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
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Loc: The Astral Realm
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deCypher said: The diseased? What do you mean?
I know objective proof isn't possible in these matters but I just see an overwhelming amount of evidence pointing towards our existence being temporally finite.
If you look into various OBE literature, specifically the work of Robert Monroe and William Buhlman, almost all projectors encounter past loved ones - usually in a state of ideal physical appearance and joy. On one of Buhlman's first projections he was greeted by his grandfather, who had the appearance of a man in his 20s. Buhlman actually had to refer to an old photo album after awakening to match up the appearance. Robert Monroe and the Monroe Institute even teach projectors to help the newly deceased escape self created hells and to come to the realization they have died and entered a thought responsive reality. They bring them to more hospitable parts of the astral realm. It is also common for projectors to encounter "consensus environments" which could represent certain theistic heavens. These environments are quite literally based on the thoughts and beliefs of a group of people. But you don't want to take these guys word for it - experience it for yourself!
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Yeah, I'm aware many people encounter entities who resemble deceased loved ones while on the astral planes. Perhaps the power of belief is sufficient enough to rip one's consciousness from its physical substrate upon death... or perhaps these entities are merely thought forms in the mind of the projector; these ghosts merely empty shells that are given life when the searchlight of the still physically-based consciousness of the projector flicks over them.
Belief can be a tricky thing; if we believe that we survive after death then wouldn't it be likely for the astral planes to mold themselves in order to reflect back impressions that sympathize with this?
I personally have never encountered past loved ones while in an OBE; when this changes I expect my beliefs will shift radically on this point.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
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Loc: The Astral Realm
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Belief can be a tricky thing; if we believe that we survive after death then wouldn't it be likely for the astral planes to mold themselves in order to reflect back impressions that sympathize with this?
I personally have never encountered past loved ones while in an OBE; when this changes I expect my beliefs will shift radically on this point.
Very tricky indeed hehe. In an OBE, you should willfully exclaim the intent to meet with a past loved one. See if you could get some information from the entity to correlate with someone who is still alive - something you could never have known. This is the only method of discovering if this is truly the past loved one I can think of.
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deCypher
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Even if you get correct answers by questioning it, it still could be a negative entity mimicking the deceased for purposes of manipulation or even an astral imprint left by the dead person:
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Just as the impression of the human body was in life a receiver, conveyor, and storage of information and knowledge, the subtler remains hold the same knowledge, in even more depth than was realized in life -and those subtler remains do not die and decay, but drift in their places so long as their places exist. When the "spirit" of a dead is summoned to visible and audible manifestation, that astral impression is therefore not the eternal part of the person that should have passed on to an afterlife, but is instead a shadow of that eternal being, a ripple that was caused by the presence of a God.
--EA Koetting
If I believe that my existence will not continue after death, does this mean that my existence won't continue after death?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
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Loc: The Astral Realm
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Quote:
deCypher said:
If I believe that my existence will not continue after death, does this mean that my existence won't continue after death?
I guess it couldn't hurt to rethink your beliefs. Believing you are eternal sure gets rid of the fear of death.
Edited by c0sm0nautt (11/03/09 09:40 PM)
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
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Belief can be a tricky thing; if we believe that we survive after death then wouldn't it be likely for the astral planes to mold themselves in order to reflect back impressions that sympathize with this?
I think its important to say , since were talking about Robert , that according to him , we have a base memory etheric body that never leaves the physical one until death.
to me it seems as though every time a consciousness is duplicated , the base is connected to its replica through a cord of some sorts. all projectors experience this.. i think they have called it the silver cord.
and.. the Ayahausca is also referred to as the vine of the soul , where many people have experienced a cord with which they are connected to the source , god , or whatever word they choose to use.
new scientific discoveries have brought about theories that there is more than one universe , and that universes create little baby universes that are connected , through something that is likened to an umbilical cord.
it even makes me wonder whether our higher selves , merely create replicas that enter into the physical human experience.
as long as we see our selves as individual entities , with a separated consciousness from others , i believe that a certain task is at hand.
you're always on some sort of mission. something is there to be experienced. and while an infinite amount replicas , replicate .. and the replicated ones replicate as well.. they're , WE're all out there doing stuff and
the one BASE .. does nothing... while constantly learning and experiencing an infinite amount of ITSELF , basically..
whats even funnier.. is that if this is something one might choose to be believe , then logically , it would follow that all of this we experience would simply be the internal world of this source. it might also have an external reality we cannot possibly experience until we realize our own consciousness to definitely be the consciousness of this source.
and THIS.. can go on into infinity as well..
and it raises a question : what the fuck is really goin on here ?
-is there this one source and it only experiences the internal world.
-or are we merely limited to it , until we experience the entirety of it, and become able to see outward.
and if the latter is the case ... wouldnt we end up asking the same question only on a higher scale ?
-------------------- --------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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