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InvisibleChronic7
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Dreams
    #11370241 - 11/02/09 05:32 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)

Seeing physical objects requires light & the eye organ to process the reflected light/the object

When we go to sleep & start dreaming our eyes are closed

So by what light do we see dream objects?

The light of consciousness, which illumines everything

:egyptian:


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: Dreams [Re: Chronic7]
    #11370339 - 11/02/09 05:46 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Seeing physical objects requires light & the eye organ to process the reflected light/the object

When we go to sleep & start dreaming our eyes are closed

So by what light do we see dream objects?

The light of consciousness, which illumines everything

:egyptian:




Um you don't actually see physical objects in your dreams unless you are sleep walking or something. It certainly does not require light to process imagination. Our brain stores images and memories and those things can still be processed without light waves or eye balls at all. I'm not sure if you were making a philosophical point or not but that seems pretty straight forward to me. :shrug:

Again, sorry for bursting your bubble if you knew this already and are just trying to provoke thought. :bobmarley:


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Invisiblec0sm0nauttM
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Re: Dreams [Re: audiophoenix]
    #11370551 - 11/02/09 06:10 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)

What defines something as physical? When I'm flying through the sky in a dream am I not FEELING the wind in my face? I can knock on a wood table in a dream and it sure feels physical. In a dream it will even make a sound. By almost every test, the objects and environment in my dream mimics that of physical objects in waking reality.

In my opinion, dreams are a substantial subjective proof that consciousness is the basis of all "physical" matter.


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Invisiblec0sm0nauttM
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Re: Dreams [Re: Chronic7]
    #11370566 - 11/02/09 06:11 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:

The light of consciousness, which illumines everything

:egyptian:




:sun:


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Dreams [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11370659 - 11/02/09 06:22 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

audiophoenix said:

Um you don't actually see physical objects in your dreams




Thats why i said 'dream objects' :shrug:


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
dreams are a substantial subjective proof that consciousness is the basis of all "physical" matter.




Its pretty obvious to me that this is why we have dreams
To show us that ALL of this existence is founded in consciousness
I guess if your only interpreting the dream,  you miss the consciousness :wink:

:peace:


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: Dreams [Re: Chronic7]
    #11371373 - 11/02/09 07:57 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)

I respect your views. I just think that dreams are different from reality and I define reality as what we experience while awake and moving. I am not convinced that our dreams are just as real as our day to day experiences. I agree things feel real at certain points in dreams (it is rare that my dreams are really that vivid for me, but they may be for you). I guess the difference for me is that when I burn alive in a dream or get stabbed I end up waking up alive and well, or at worst with a numb arm.

Like I said I respect your view and I should have read  your post better and realized you were speaking philosophically not scientifically. The wonderful thing about life is getting a gimps at others viewpoints.

-Dave


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Invisiblec0sm0nauttM
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Re: Dreams [Re: audiophoenix]
    #11371450 - 11/02/09 08:06 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

You should look into lucid dreaming to see for yourself just how real dreams can get. :smile:


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Dreams [Re: audiophoenix]
    #11371637 - 11/02/09 08:29 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

I respect your views. I just think that dreams are different from reality and I define reality as what we experience while awake and moving






How do you know that you're awake ?

!

?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: Dreams [Re: audiophoenix]
    #11371643 - 11/02/09 08:31 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
Quote:

I respect your views. I just think that dreams are different from reality and I define reality as what we experience while awake and moving






How do you know that you're awake ?

!

?



Quote:

audiophoenix said:I guess the difference for me is that when I burn alive in a dream or get stabbed I end up waking up alive and well, or at worst with a numb arm.

-Dave




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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Dreams [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11372556 - 11/02/09 10:41 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
In my opinion, dreams are a substantial subjective proof that consciousness is the basis of all "physical" matter.




How does this follow?

What seems more likely to me is that your brain normally experiences various sensory perceptions throughout waking life.  Once a perception has been experienced it then can be duplicated during dreams, and even creatively modified by the incredibly active power of your imagination.  Alternatively, I can also see the mind as a microcosmic divination tool that is able to reconstruct different spatiotemporal regions in the macrocosm for the benefit of your conscious experience (this would explain astral projection and the like).

Consciousness, as the sort of self-awareness that we humans experience, seems to require a sufficiently complex system such as the brain to exist.  There may well be lesser degrees of consciousness (rocks would have less than plants, which would have less than animals), but I can't make sense of saying that self-awareness is somehow the basis of a chunk of silicon dioxide.  All matter is energy in the end, but it takes a certain form of intricately interacting waveforms of energy to obtain consciousness.

BTW, congrats on the modship!


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Edited by deCypher (11/02/09 10:55 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Dreams [Re: deCypher]
    #11372670 - 11/02/09 10:57 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
There may well be lesser degrees of consciousness (rocks would have less than plants, which would have less than animals), but I can't make sense of saying that self-awareness is somehow the basis of a chunk of silicon dioxide.  All matter is energy in the end, but it takes a certain form of intricately interacting waveforms of energy to obtain consciousness.


Has it been proven that rocks and/or plants can, or do, for the lack of a better term, "produce" these intricately interacting waveforms of energy which are necessary to obtain consciousness?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Dreams [Re: Poid]
    #11372691 - 11/02/09 11:00 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Judging merely by behavioral observation (which is, after all, how we determine other humans are conscious), I would say it's pretty self-evident that a rock is not self-aware.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblec0sm0nauttM
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Re: Dreams [Re: deCypher]
    #11373038 - 11/02/09 11:42 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
In my opinion, dreams are a substantial subjective proof that consciousness is the basis of all "physical" matter.




How does this follow?

What seems more likely to me is that your brain normally experiences various sensory perceptions throughout waking life.  Once a perception has been experienced it then can be duplicated during dreams, and even creatively modified by the incredibly active power of your imagination.  Alternatively, I can also see the mind as a microcosmic divination tool that is able to reconstruct different spatiotemporal regions in the macrocosm for the benefit of your conscious experience (this would explain astral projection and the like).





Would you say this "incredibly active power of imagination" lays dormant during other states of consciousness? I've been unable to recreate anything near the intricacy of dreams in day dreams, meditation or under the effect of a psychedelic. I understand your perspective, yet a part of me is not willing to accept that dreams are the mere product of imagination.

I think our views differ in that I believe the brain is a temporary vehicle for consciousness in physical reality, and consciousness actually leaves the brain during astral projection to explore a somewhat objective reality. I say somewhat because the astral realm has both subjective thought-responsive environments as well as consensus environments built around the foundation of many non-physical inhabitants thoughts.

The dream reality seems to be almost entirely subjective, although there are different levels of dreams. I think it can overlap into a reality where you can come into contact with other beings. If we get into the idea that the all is one, and the one is all - then does it really matter whether it is subjective or not?


Quote:

deCypher said:
Consciousness, as the sort of self-awareness that we humans experience, seems to require a sufficiently complex system such as the brain to exist.  There may well be lesser degrees of consciousness (rocks would have less than plants, which would have less than animals), but I can't make sense of saying that self-awareness is somehow the basis of a chunk of silicon dioxide.  All matter is energy in the end, but it takes a certain form of intricately interacting waveforms of energy to obtain consciousness.

BTW, congrats on the modship!




I would agree self-awareness (at least on the plane of Physical reality) is limited to human beings and perhaps a few other mammals.

And thanks!


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Dreams [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11373230 - 11/03/09 12:07 AM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Would you say this "incredibly active power of imagination" lays dormant during other states of consciousness? I've been unable to recreate anything near the intricacy of dreams in day dreams, meditation or under the effect of a psychedelic.




I think that shutting off sensory contact with the outside world helps induce the brain to actively imagine; this is why dissociatives can create out of body experiences and sleep can create dreaming reveries. 

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
I think our views differ in that I believe the brain is a temporary vehicle for consciousness in physical reality, and consciousness actually leaves the brain during astral projection to explore a somewhat objective reality.




Astral projectors still have the neurons in their brain firing while astrally projecting; the neural activity inherent in the physical correlate to consciousness never stops.  Your subjective experience may well seem to be soaring through galaxies and into outer space, but for you to be able to see something while APing it is logically necessary for the neurons in your visual cortex to be firing in a specific way; the same way that they would fire were you to actually be witnessing a different physical location.

At the same time I think that it is quite likely that APers are, in fact, able to receive information and gain sensory experiences of things they couldn't possibly have gotten through ordinary means.  The trick lies in explaining how these perceptions came to a conscious brain that never moved from its location in the APer's skull lying on a pillow, and I don't think neuroscience or philosophy is quite ready yet for that explanation.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Dreams [Re: deCypher]
    #11373437 - 11/03/09 12:29 AM (8 years, 22 days ago)

ah
ive missed threads like this :smile:

so bored lately..

nehow..

maybe an hour ago i was laying on my couch. I thought it could be nice if i projected or had a nice dream of sorts , since it hasn't been happening much recently.
I lied on my stomach and tucked my hands under myself , thinking it would bother my body and kick in the conscious part of myself when i get close to passing out.

It did.
I was disrupted from the thoughtless moments before the conscious mind completely shuts off by the constricted blood flow in my arms.
Momentarily i started feeling the dum dum dum vibrations and happily awaited what was to come.

Within a few seconds i found myself sitting on the chair in front my computer , playing a video game ?
So i thought .. why am i projecting while playing a video game ?
There gonna kill me.
All previous memory was lost.
Now.. if you can imagine a slightly translucent version of your body.. moving about while the normal one sits still...
thats what happened to me.
only i had already projected..

i was projecting - from the projected double.
I started feeling tightness , an energy i can only describe as immense resistance.


I woke up.. on the couch.
Pissed off :smile:

ok.. so theres a point to all of this..yea..

so imagine.. that god.. does this kind of stuff... replicates himself , and that is who we are.
hes projecting.
and we are him.
so .. we can project too..
and when we do.. the replica can do it as well.. and so on.


Quote:


Alternatively, I can also see the mind as a microcosmic divination tool that is able to reconstruct different spatiotemporal regions in the macrocosm for the benefit of your conscious experience (this would explain astral projection and the like).




...
although this is true...
it makes you wonder... it makes you ask yourself >>  all this stuff i call waking life , consciousness , reality... could it be.. that it is merely someones reconstruction of a spatiotemporal region for the benefit of HIS conscious experience ?
And who is HE ?
Who are you ?

:rofl:


its all the same i tell ya :smile: ... yet somehow so uniquely different..
dream after dream
projection after projection
illusion upon illusion

cosmo might not have the right words and examples to describe his opinion..
but he feels it... he knows...
we all do..
we're all neo , knowing somewhere in the back of our head that this isnt really what it seems to be.
living in a dream world.
wake up neo.
and  he did..
and he started kickin some agent ass in the matrix..
flying around playing superman with the poor programs
but then.. he figured out he could do the same outside of it :smile:

very very good movie..
few people understand it entirely..


:peace:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Dreams [Re: jivJaN]
    #11375420 - 11/03/09 11:02 AM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
we're all neo , knowing somewhere in the back of our head that this isnt really what it seems to be.
living in a dream world.




I intuitively feel much the same thing.  It's almost as if reality is becoming more fluid and bendable as time goes on; perhaps leading up in an asymptotic curve to 2012?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Dreams [Re: deCypher]
    #11375602 - 11/03/09 11:39 AM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Judging merely by behavioral observation (which is, after all, how we determine other humans are conscious), I would say it's pretty self-evident that a rock is not self-aware.


Then why did you say:

Quote:

deCypher said:
There may well be lesser degrees of consciousness (rocks would have less than plants, which would have less than animals)...







If it is self-evident that rocks are do not possess consciousness, then how could it have "less" consciousness then whatever given phenomenon that does possess consciousness? This is like a heterosexual man telling a homosexual male that he is "less gay" than him.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Dreams [Re: Poid]
    #11375664 - 11/03/09 11:50 AM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Here we run into difficulties of terminology.  I believe there are different degrees of consciousness, and past a certain point I would call that level of consciousness self-awareness.  With regard to rocks, I would say they possess less consciousness than plants but they do not possess self-awareness, which so far as we can tell only humans have IMO.

BTW, homosexuality and heterosexuality are also more likely to be a matter of degree than black or white.


--------------------
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Dreams [Re: deCypher]
    #11375726 - 11/03/09 12:00 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I believe there are different degrees of consciousness, and past a certain point I would call that level of consciousness self-awareness.


So you believe all atoms are conscious to some degree?



Quote:

deCypher said:
With regard to rocks, I would say they possess less consciousness than plants but they do not possess self-awareness, which so far as we can tell only humans have IMO.


Can you explain why you believe this?



Quote:

deCypher said:
BTW, homosexuality and heterosexuality are also more likely to be a matter of degree than black or white.


True, that was quite a poor example, but at least you sort of got my point, I think...:strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Dreams [Re: Poid]
    #11375773 - 11/03/09 12:07 PM (8 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said: So you believe all atoms are conscious to some degree?




Yep.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
With regard to rocks, I would say they possess less consciousness than plants but they do not possess self-awareness, which so far as we can tell only humans have IMO.


Can you explain why you believe this?




Hmm.  I don't know why I said only humans; if you go by the mirror test then it looks like great apes, bottlenose dolphins, orcas, elephants, and European magpies might also be self-aware.  At any rate it seems as though there is a minority of organisms on Earth that possess self-awareness.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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