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OfflineNoteworthy
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Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics
    #11365128 - 11/01/09 10:05 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I do not claim to have this proof, rather I ask for it.

People always say 'the onus of proof is on religions, for they make claims that are not supported by the evidence!'

Well actually, christians use lots of evidence. The question is whether they make the correct conclusions from that evidence. For example, Do they interpret voices in their head as god, or merely as very mild psychoses?

Well, since we know that lots of people experience strange things, and have never measured god's presence, we can assume the most likely answer is that these people are hearing things.

So we treat them as such.

But when it comes to science, they make similar issues that we cannot so easily skirt around. No one has ever seen consciousness form when certain physical constraits are met. No one has ever done any test on consciousness that can 'rule out' all the other explinations. we have no 'alternative explination' we merely assert at the beginning that nothing exists other than what can be shown by science.

but, no science has the means to even talk about consciousness.

Regardless of whether consciousness is a material offshoot from the brain, or alternatively a spiritual entity, the evidence that changes in the brain result in changes in consciousness does not distinguish these possibilities. We know that the brain is an interface between consciousness and 'reality'. This much would be true whether there is a soul or not.

And so far that is the only evidence we have - physical changes to the brain result in a certain range of reportable changes in consciousness.

The only argument against the existance of a soul or non-material consciousness, or whatever, is that no human has been able to isolate its properties in a repeatable experiment.

Doesn't anyone see the flaws in basing your whole belief structure on verifiability by humans? It is obviously the best route of them all, but to hold it up and say 'this is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth' seems absurd to me? humans have massive limitations on their scientific capabilities and what sort of questions they can ask. The fact that they have so many possibilities too, is irrelevant.

So This thread is here to oppose this view of mine and give arguments for the scientists case. I want to know all the proof that you can muster that suggests to YOU that consciousness is a physical process that we could potentially describe with today's physical laws, or some other scientific explination.

Anything at all, is great ./thanks


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Offlinekydelic
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11365315 - 11/01/09 10:30 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I don't like when professors and scientists say that 'this is the only truth,' because it closes their minds to future changes in the field...

I am currently reading the Physics of Consciousness off and on, and I'd recommend it, although it is a bit of a laborious read, and the author puts all sorts of personal anecdotes in it (I guess he wrote it as a way of getting over the death of a girl he briefly dated in the 1950s), nevertheless it is fairly interesting.


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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: kydelic]
    #11365404 - 11/01/09 10:41 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I don't like when professors and scientists say that 'this is the only truth,'




Who the hell says that?  I have interacted with dozens of professors and scientists and have never heard any of them ever say anything remotely close to that.  In fact they usually go out of their way to say the opposite, that all the scientific 'truth' we have is tentative.


As for the original post, consciousness cant be explained with physics and it isnt explained with physics.  Thats not to say it isn't a physical process though.  We change our consciousness with physical things all the time, chemicals, interactions, sleep, death.  All these physical things effect consciousness suggesting it is physical, as you said.  But if you demand 'proof' from the 'laws of physics' that consciousness is physical then your not gonna get it obviously since it doesn't exist.  So what does such an absence of proof prove?  Nothing.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11365585 - 11/01/09 11:10 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

That is one garbled, meandering post you made there. Did you even read it yourself?

Science is a method and makes no claims whatsoever.

Quote:

And so far that is the only evidence we have - physical changes to the brain result in a certain range of reportable changes in consciousness.




Why is 100% correlation puzzling to you?


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: DieCommie]
    #11365739 - 11/01/09 11:32 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Nice post...



So yeah I just smoked a bowl of good herb I apologize for my ranting on about bullshit :lol:

Bare with me...

I see consciousness, in the almost total sense of the concept we have in mind when we use it, as something verified primarily physical by the fact that we have a good idea of what it is to be alive and to become dead. Animate living bodies, when complex enough (like the human), developed into "idea machines" - that is by some sort of brilliance the body started to realize itself by registering ideas of what affects it and so on. Higher consciousness is a late development of this evolution, we refer to ourselves more and more it seems. Consciousness seems like a complex function of our survival in the world whose capacities exist in this seemingly imaginative/remembered ideal world. But awareness to me in the consciousnesses of man perhaps happens across some really interesting "ideas" - that is via our possessed rationality we achieve a rational accounting of the world and its intricatcies which even entails strange sensations of ones being, we feel everything about us more as we expand it seems. But then the question becomes just why are we individuated bodies exerting ourselves to become life? I do believe there is something in the physics - something of a contingency, always in waiting, to become - OF the universe, and this is the exertion of life; matter becoming “animate.” Just like how we assume we discover any consistency, any science of the world, the most epic and mysterious principle of the universe is that of the nature of our pure essence/virtue of life and we come to know it in-action… It appears to be a pretty brilliantly ignorant identity game concerning itself, via the causal consequences surrounding it, to expand in powers - this is the pure virtue that (in some sense of how I am stumbling along here) that sort of like what Spinoza talked about - what we call life is a virtue of expansion.

But what does this mean for consciousness, hahaha? Well I guess it’s a problem of the so called starting point of ones individual perspective when thinking about this “issue.” While we think metaphysics and magical detached forces drive the outlook of a godly foundation of the soul - I think we are making a very basic mistake (and it is often somewhat an error in familiarity IMO)... That is the world as we come to know it temporally is already the birth place of all concepts and thus infinitely more profound than mere human ideas stemming just from what is already becoming in the universe, to really fixate on the weird subject of the possibility of a substantial other world relating to this one as odd.

Though we might wonder what forces predicate the intricatcies of nature, and we often refer to that force as the “god of the philosophers” and I think following that idea most logically would result in its obvious substantial connection at least in a certain overlap of mindfulness experienced in the finite lifeform... but this is all tough to define and easily mocked at by occam’s razor. I find the pursuit of proving the physicality/nonphysically of consciousness kind of silly, it seems already very apparent that minds primarily refer to a thing of the world - at least things are only remembered, identity is most coveted and felt via an incarnation. So there might be a very fundamental overlap - but its borderline void of any idea content for the forefront of our consciousness to really get wordy about - merely an odd feeling of existential awareness IMO. Mysteriousssssss but I often read along with the debates of soul/nosoul with a little irony in my mind everything is right here, the proposition of the said "duality" is at the very best an extremely slippery and minute aspect of the world - but the best way to put it is that the duality, of the possibility of one having a soul - beyond the substantial - is a mistake in our mentality, properly ones appreciation for the subtleness of existence at its roots is so very subtly rich - while the world at large is extravagantly rich... but then again some palates can pick up on and appreciate the subtle and fine points of good fare :wink:

Yeaaaaaaaap if anyone read all that touche hahaha, I wonder if I make any sense to anyone or maybe people cant relate to my rantin :gethigh:


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Edited by andrewss (11/01/09 11:41 PM)


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: andrewss]
    #11365785 - 11/01/09 11:41 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

The basic assumption you make is that science does not have the capacity to measure all things and thus cannot conclude whether consciousness crosses the line of life and death, thereby disintegrating it. Do I think conciousness does pervade it??? Who cares, it is no relevant to the way I live my life right now anyways. Most of the things I do are for purely survival. Food, shelter, etc. Therefore, even if it does I have no basis on which to make that experience(the experience of my conciousness extending beyond the stopping of my heart) I will focus on things I know for sure will affect me negatively...Ie. No job, shitty job.


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Offlinekydelic
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: andrewss]
    #11365792 - 11/01/09 11:43 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Who the hell says that?  I have interacted with dozens of professors and scientists and have never heard any of them ever say anything remotely close to that.




As I said, various professors and scientists I've talked to. Many are just as ingrained in their ways as a religious fanatic. They tend to be the older ones, though, and by all means aren't all of them, but many of them are dismissive at the very least of different studies, even within their area of expertise. Believe it or not, the scientific community as a whole can be pretty resistant to change. If you follow science news somewhat closely you'll see this quite often.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #11365808 - 11/01/09 11:44 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

The people who are strong in these types of questions, have a point to prove, to someone or themselves.....possibly to make themselves feel good, for example...pride motivates people to a multitude of useless proving and argumentation. Orgone is a good example of that, I have nothing against it, I dont like putting up with it, so I dont. It is essentially useless to answer a question about life and death right now, because life is all encompassing without that question anwyays and its fucking likely that with our current technology, it would be impossible to measure that. Plus a surprise is always fun....


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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11365906 - 11/02/09 12:00 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
That is one garbled, meandering post you made there. Did you even read it yourself?

Science is a method and makes no claims whatsoever.

Quote:

And so far that is the only evidence we have - physical changes to the brain result in a certain range of reportable changes in consciousness.




Why is 100% correlation puzzling to you?




your "100% correlation" comment is 'garble' and makes no sense.

and you might make claims like 'science is a method' but you are clearly ignorant to the world at the moment if you believe that science is just a method. Science is not just a method, it is a method of doing something, and the things that it does are also what it is. Science is a method of interpreting the world and those interpretations become claims about the world, and that is part of what science is, it is a claim about the best interpretation of the world. A scientist can say 'well I am willing to change my opinion in light of new scientific evidence'. But that is just the problem here - there is no currently proposed way that science could ever determine what consciousness is. since science has limitations, believing only in science, and whatever is the 'latest scientific theory' is a great way to be a conversationalist, but it is chosing a path that necessarily will be ignoring the more interesting aspect of reality - the consciousness that is experiencing it.

so anyway, no posts in this thread have really answered the OP yet, but it is still a small thread


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11365940 - 11/02/09 12:04 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

oh also I would like to point out that science is not the wonderful enterprise of discovery that it once was... there is now so much money required to do science that it is in the hands of investors who want certain things suggested by the results of the experiments that they fund.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11366002 - 11/02/09 12:14 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Yes. Science does make a claim, when it states that it can interpret the reality of this world though the five senses.

That is one of the reasons why science does not nessecily have the perfect method for understanding this reality - it makes an assumption that it cannot prove or disprove, with 100% certainty. It certainly can prove that the eyes do see and that we share in that, but it cannot prove that our senses are limited to those five.....That is the problem with science and any method of interpretation, the methods its themselves are based on assumptions that do not nessecarily, have objective certainty.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11366017 - 11/02/09 12:17 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

your "100% correlation" comment is 'garble' and makes no sense.




Reread what you wrote then look up 'correlation'.

Quote:

Science is not just a method, it is a method of doing something...



Bad, bad science! We need more methods that do nothing? :rolleyes:

Quote:

so anyway, no posts in this thread have really answered the OP yet



Perhaps if you posited a clear question other than the incredibly weak and implied "Why doesn't science have all of the answers for us right now?" :hissyfit:


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/02/09 12:52 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #11366043 - 11/02/09 12:23 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That is the problem with science and any method of interpretation, the methods its themselves are based on assumptions that do not nessecarily, have objective certainty.




What 'other' methods have give us: *crickets chirping*

What science has given us: Must I really list the zillion inventions of which you use daily and just used to communicate with us? :rolleyes:

What I have gathered in this thread so far - NEWSFLASH: Scientists are imperfect humans. WOW - the earth shakes beneath my feet!

The scientific method itself, however, has never been shown to be flawed. Ever.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11366149 - 11/02/09 12:41 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Obviously, you did not understand the question; *crickets chirping*

bye


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #11366159 - 11/02/09 12:44 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Decreased brain function = decreased consciousness.

What more needs to be said?


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11366191 - 11/02/09 12:52 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Need is relative. "Enough" SAID.

Oh sweet irony, why doth thow escapeth thee.


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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11366210 - 11/02/09 12:55 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

oh also I would like to point out that science is not the wonderful enterprise of discovery that it once was... there is now so much money required to do science that it is in the hands of investors who want certain things suggested by the results of the experiments that they fund.




Look up DIYbio, be awed. A lot of what people do here could be considered DIYbio as well, although a lot of that movement concentrates on molecular biology and computational biology. A lot of yawn, but some good grassroots ideas and some people are doing more interesting research.

Quote:

It certainly can prove that the eyes do see and that we share in that, but it cannot prove that our senses are limited to those five.....That is the problem with science and any method of interpretation, the methods its themselves are based on assumptions that do not nessecarily, have objective certainty.




No, the problem lies in falsifiability. No matter what, you'll always be able to say that we have more than five senses, because really there is no way of proving that we don't have five senses, if you really want to think that way. Plus, technically, we have a sense of orientation too, thanks to our inner ear. If you posit something you can't disprove, you can't prove it either.

Quote:

But that is just the problem here - there is no currently proposed way that science could ever determine what consciousness is.




I kind of find it hard to believe that you are a neuroscience/neurobio student...generally consciousness arrives to us via electrochemical brain signals. We don't have a full understanding of consciousness yet, but that's because neuroscience is indeed an extremely young science and the tools we have are extremely crude.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: kydelic]
    #11366484 - 11/02/09 02:07 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

why are people trying to skirt around the question?

as for '5 senses' nonsense.. I think people ought to get over that ancient notion. There are amultitude of senses from all aspects of our body. Science indeed is limited to our senses, but more specifically it is limited to environments that can be sensed repeatedly and reliably in certain ways.

as for "generally consciousness arrives to us via electrochemical brain signals" - yes I am a psychology student, and no, this is not actually shown by science. What we know is that the brain is required to bridge the gap between the outside world and the experience of consciousness. It is also required for all kinds of things like memory, and ability to report what is being experienced. None of this suggests that consciousness actually IS these brain processes, or is CAUSEd by these brain processes, because these findings are consistent with many accounts of consciousness, whether physical or spiritual, or otherwise metaphysical.

orgone conclusion, you really have outdone yourself with redundant responses that avoid the topic and assert a sort of 'granted' arrogance of opinion that does not feel the need to justify anything it says. Of course, this is my thread, so I am more annoyed by your shallow engagement than I would be if you were pissing about somewhere else.

btw. the fact that science acheives a lot does not mean anything about what science has not yet acheived. Of all the imaginable things science could have done, it hasnt done them all. yet it also has done many things that we didnt think it would do.
The point is that you cannot use the track record of science to suggest its piety, because in doing this, you are saying:
'Well I don't really want to think about this stuff, but those scientists, they seem to get a lot done, I will just listen to what they tell me, and if they disagree, I will give it a couple of years an wait to see which scientists make the most money with their technology'.

Now, back to the thread.

If you do not think that it is a claim of science that consciousness is merely a pattern of electro-chemical reactions, then thats an opinion you can take, which you can share here, as succinctly as possible, hopefully. In that case I would LOVE it if you suggested what the claim of science actually is, regarding this matter.

However, if you are aware of the prevailing claims made all throughout the secular world, you will realise that a lot of people say that consciousness is a pattern of electro-chemical reactions in the brain, and that is all.

I am looking for any evidence at all that distinguishes the likelihood that this claim is true, from the likelihood that other claims are true.

I am not claiming either way - I think the scientific explanation is the one that you should put your money on. But belief is not the same as investment priority. At the moment, it sems to me that no one really ought to have a belief on matters such as consciousness or the origin of the universe, etc. But people do.


ps. kydelic, I will be checkin out DIYbio to get an understanding of what it is on about


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11366552 - 11/02/09 02:25 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Well you do have a belief about conciousness. So there, you suck I win.


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Re: Proof that Consciousness can be explained with Physics [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #11366561 - 11/02/09 02:27 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I was just being expressive there.

You do have a belief on conciousness - That any belief would be arbitrary to make at this level of human methodological analysis(all the tools we have to understand what happens if anything,in the context of the functionality of our body)


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