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Offlinechemkid
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Race Sell-outs !!!!
    #1135611 - 12/12/02 02:42 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I am very curious about this.

If you see a black man that is very well educated, well spoken, dressed nice with a great job......I'll put my money on the fact that most other black people will call him a sell out. This really disturbs me. What we are telling African Americans is that it is great to dream to be better but not to actually succeed in doing it.

There is alot of racism in this world but when you have to contend with your own people as well, this is very sad.

Case in point: have you ever heard a black man say "Bryant Gumble is the man?"
All of my black friends say he is a sell out. When I ask why, most say because he is out of touch with his roots. Come on...how can anyone know what he holds dear?



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Offlineupupup
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1135648 - 12/12/02 02:58 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

If you see a black man that is very well educated, well spoken, dressed nice with a great job......it is great to dream to be better

I hope you hear this for what I am saying and don't construe something negative from it...
The above bolded text has a premise, that being that dressing nice (all subjective terms), being well spoken, having a good education, and a great job have somthing to do with success. I might suggest that those are cultural biases and to me mean very little in the context of what is truly preciouse in life but this is subjective on my part...

If I saw that person I would just think they got sucked into a lifestyle that is, more often than not, quite empty and devoid of meaning.....regardless of any kind of race....


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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1135847 - 12/12/02 04:14 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

racism is ugly. and whats even worse...is it will always be here



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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1136069 - 12/12/02 05:21 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Bryant Gumble is lame, that's why.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinechemkid
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Registered: 06/21/02
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: upupup]
    #1136488 - 12/12/02 07:28 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I think you are digging to deep......I wasn't trying to get into the pjilosophical aspects of what peoples ideas of success were. I am trying to figure out this whole "Sell Out" thing.

If I live in the ghetto, a trailer park, middle America, or a mansion......white people don't say I am a sell out. I am sure they could come up with a few other choice words of hatred but I am always regarded as 'White' not a sell out.

What's the deal?

I would love to hear from any African-Americans out there. Where is Mo Howard when you need him?


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1137620 - 12/13/02 07:15 AM (14 years, 1 day ago)

In reply to:

What's the deal?



Sour grapes. Envy. Excuse making for their own lack of initiative. It is easier to point fingers and malign the character of those who have bettered themselves than to go through the arduous tasks of improving your own life by your own initiative.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1140513 - 12/14/02 10:06 AM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

I see it this way...
Racism isn't hating someone for the color of their skin. It's not about hating someone because of the geographic location of their ancestoral homeland. And it's not about hating someone for their genetic makeup.
Racism is about hating someone because of their culture. Hatred of Jews, homosexuals, or drug users stems from the same place that hatred of blacks comes from. It's not about skin color, it's about culture. Look at all the people that are racist. They more often than not also hate homosexuals and drug users as well. They are intolerant of other cultures.
The traits you describe of the "succesful black man" are traits that white culture uses to define success. A black man can be succesful without giving in to the white man's culture. Your "succesful black man" has sold out on his culture in exchange for some of the worst of white culture. Now he looks like a good white man, just like intolerant, racist whites want him to. That is why he's a sellout.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: ]
    #1140566 - 12/14/02 10:28 AM (14 years, 1 hour ago)

Thanks for the post...I guess that's certainly a possibility.

However, I fail to see how having a good job and providing for your family is selling out. If staying in the ghetto and remaining poor and on welfare is the answer to not being a sell out then it's too bad there are not more sell outs.



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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: ]
    #1140597 - 12/14/02 10:43 AM (14 years, 1 hour ago)

Also....I don't think that is true becasue if you talk to a lot of black people, most will say that they wish they had a good job, good money, nice house, etc. So even if this is the white mans definition of success they still desrire it.......but once acheived they are a sell out.

Old Cliche: America loves success, America hates successful people.

I think this is so true. We love the idea of "the American dream" but once someone becomes successful we love to tear them down.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1140652 - 12/14/02 11:03 AM (14 years, 1 hour ago)

I disagree. America loves successful people. Why do you think MTV's "Cribs" is so popular? It goes by the same idea as "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous." I'd say that the popularity of these two shows disproves a major idea of Marxism. Karl Marx believed that the poor working class would revolt because of the excesses of the rich, yet instead poor people enjoy watching shows about rich people's extravagant houses. They sit back and imagine having a house like that one day.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinechemkid
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Registered: 06/21/02
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1140661 - 12/14/02 11:06 AM (14 years, 1 hour ago)

you just refuted your own disagreement. It is not the people they are revering it is the thought of having the same kind of lifestyle that attracts them.

I bet they don't hold these people in any high regard. We just like to druel over the possibilities.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1140669 - 12/14/02 11:16 AM (14 years, 1 hour ago)

i think that success shouldn't be defined in terms of "the black man's success" or "the white man's success". it should be defined by the individual's idea of success. if a person's idea of being of a success is having a nice house, driving a nice car, and having a good job then great for that person. with that being said, then i think it is wrong for anyone to label that person a sell-out. i do see your point of view and agree with it. i have notice alot of so called leaders in the black community chastising other blacks who wear nice business suits, live in big houses, have good paying jobs, and who talk "white". i think it has more to do with the fact that they don't go along with those black leaders views. so they call them sell-outs so others in the black community won't listen to what they have to say. one example that comes to mind is when harrry belafonte called colin powell an "uncle tom" and said that he was living in the master's house just because mr. powell was part of a republican administration. i would doubt that if he had been part of a democratic cabinet that any such criticism would have been offered. also, i have noticed that when a white person listens to hip-hop or rap music, wears baggy clothing, or talks "black" they are labeled as wiggers. i have heard people on this website call fellow shroomerites wiggers. that kind of bothers me. i mean who decides who is allowed to talk a certain way or dress a certain way anyway. if you use the term wigger, in my opinion, you are a racist. because by saying that you are saying that black people are "n-word"s because they listen to rap music and talk a certain way.


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



Edited by htownkid28 (12/14/02 11:18 AM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1140706 - 12/14/02 11:41 AM (14 years, 41 minutes ago)

I'm with ya man... our roots are with the earth itself, doesn't matter which part.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineGrav
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: Strumpling]
    #1140758 - 12/14/02 12:10 PM (14 years, 13 minutes ago)

I think if you even care enough to try and define someone like that, then you're just being negative. You have no real basis for judging that person except what's on the surface. All your doing is trying to make yourself feel superior by calling others wannabes or sellouts.




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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: Grav]
    #1140761 - 12/14/02 12:13 PM (14 years, 10 minutes ago)

hey grav.... try and respond to the correct person please :smile: I got all offended n shit for a minute lol


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineGrav
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: Grav]
    #1140794 - 12/14/02 12:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

And if you think you do have a real basis, than it is probably a very close-minded one, no?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: Strumpling]
    #1140798 - 12/14/02 12:35 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What?  I was talking about you, you superficial asshole.




heh just kiddin, sorry,  that does look confusing  :wink:


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Anonymous

Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #1140807 - 12/14/02 12:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Just so you know, this is not aimed at you chemkid, but I'm about to rant here for a minute.

What extreme anti-racism fails to recognize is that there are differences between races, that can clearly be seen in each culture. To deny this is naivet? or stubbornness. When one is intolerant of these differences is where racism begins. Some people want to see a global homogenized culture, which I could see happening in the next hundred years as a result of technology and global communication. This would be a great thing, but in the mean time let's take a moment to celebrate the good things that all the races have to offer. I see white culture, black culture, asian culture, hispanic culture, indian culture, and they're all beautiful to me. Let's be proud of who we are and accept ourselves for who we are, while we accept others for who they are. If you don't understand someone else's culture, try your best to, and don't let your xenophobia breed spite and hate.

The reason Bryant Gumble and and also "wiggers" are "sell-outs" is because they've lost touch with their roots. A black person may "act white" if they grew up in a white neighborhood, or a white kid may be a "wigger" if he grew up in a mostly black neighborhood. There's nothing wrong with this because where you're raised and the culture there will affect how you act. However if you're a 20 year old white person who was raised in a typical white middle class neighorhood and you suddenly start acting like you were raised in a black ghetto, people have good reason to laugh at you. You've lost all sense of pride of your culture by acting out someone else's culture, and you probably don't even understand that culture to begin with. This is why it's selling out. If a successful black business man who acts like your typical white Wall Street businessman (talk about stereotyping, my apologies) was raised in that manner, then others are wrong to label him a sell-out because that is who he is.

I could go on, how most white folk feel like they have no culture of their own these days, and how it's been replaced with robotic consumerism, but I'll save that for another thread.




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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: ]
    #1140828 - 12/14/02 12:51 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"What extreme anti-racism fails to recognize is that there are differences between races, that can clearly be seen in each culture."

I don't know if you really understand the point though - the who idea of these people "losing touch" with their "roots" is a fantastic sign that "hey look any of us can act any way.. so lets stop letting race keep us apart"


--------------------
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OfflineGrav
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Re: Race Sell-outs !!!! [Re: Strumpling]
    #1140888 - 12/14/02 01:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Regardless of someone's race, or where they grew up, you don't know what sort of things they exerpienced to make them 'change' into who they are. I think it's ignorant to say they're "selling out". Selling out of what??? What if someone grows up in a super religious and racist community in the south, but sees how completely hateful and intolerant it is and changes his lifestyle dramatically. I'd say he is selling his roots and buying the opportunity to look at himself in a mirror.
Or something like that...

I agree with Max, that there are many beautiful aspects of every culture, and the culture should be proud of that... However, I believe these aspects are not created by the culture, but created from positive Human nature.
When you try and limit something beautiful to one culture than you're just holding back its true potential.

Just sort of an example:
Some (kinda hard to find) hip-hop and rap music is very poetic and honest, and makes a person feel free when he listens to it. It's fuckin stupid to say it's "black people's music" or whatever.

Happiness, Art, Beauty (whatever you want to call it) is universal.




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