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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED*
    #11355889 - 10/31/09 04:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

Edited by Lakefingers (10/31/09 05:05 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11355904 - 10/31/09 04:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Excellent. I especially grok these parts.

How one deals with the death angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals

And

We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure or that make us objectify death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it. If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthetnically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle.

A holy jolly Day of the Dead to  you my friend.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11355923 - 10/31/09 05:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps it isn't easy for Jason, or any of us, to see how the Ouroboros represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself and re-examining it's beginning and end, from the various perspective points of perception.

Jason is a re-incarnation of Cain and and conceives his own reality complete with supportive roles that do little in the way of working thru a false premise thus reinforcing Cain's own self image and self-approval ad infinitum.

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11355928 - 10/31/09 05:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Heidegger's been popping up around here lately. Death is getting all the more room in the forum - no doubt because of the combination of ego-death inducing drugs, philosophical thinking, and several of our members passing middle age. Here's a small intro to some of Heidegger's essential thoughts on death.

Angst is a dread about being here, alive, in this world. Fear of death is directed towards an objective threat. Angst is general and without the intentional object of fear.

Revealing and everdayness. Revealing is the function of truth, which uncovers what is hidden in everdayness - the concealing function of normal being/thought/action.

Being-toward-death is a way of being in relation to death. This relates to our way of experiencing time as a time spiral, a loop, a recurrence that relate to self-projections beyond the present. As humans we relate to possibility and probability. Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".

We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure by objectifying death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it. If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthentically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle.

Ecstatically morbid Halloween to you.




I spend a lot of time thinking about what its going to feel like when I die

I know I will be afraid when the time comes but I also see this as a progression to the next step and not the true end of me

I used to believe death was the end and some would have you believe that this is actually a more realistic and rational way of viewing things

I personally think its an excuse so we don't have to own up to mistakes and personal weakness, or attempt to correct our flaws believing that we will not be held accountable for our actions

its a license to be a complete fuck without having to answer for it

the prospect of hell is far more terrifying then death

I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to contemplate the fullness of hell as well(though this is impossible without being there)

I'll end with this song that seems to fit this topic fairly well and I believe what is being said in it

fear and pain have a way of stripping away our masks and showing us the truth of who we are:


Edited by Life Upon Death (10/31/09 05:26 AM)

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11355936 - 10/31/09 05:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

if hell is a reality then the denial of its existence could be referred too as "hell anxiety"

the belief of a lie in order to pacify that anxiety

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11355948 - 10/31/09 05:28 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

MAJOR DEATH ANXIETY ALERT!:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11356100 - 10/31/09 06:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I do not understand the notion of 'death anxiety', it seems highly illogical. Why would anyone be anxious about something they are never going to experience? :shrug:

Sure, you can be irrationally anxious about the pain of dying that you may or may not experience in any number of ways. But when you are 'dead' what exactly is the basis for your continued experience? You are DEAD. All available evidence suggests that you no longer have any conciousness after your brain dies.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11356175 - 10/31/09 07:33 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

rational ego?

You really don't get it?

:rofl2:

You are a perfect example of how this works.

Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".

We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure by objectifying death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it. If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthentically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (10/31/09 07:34 AM)

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11356232 - 10/31/09 07:54 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not anxious about death simply becuase I will never experience it. I will experience dying but I have no idea when it will happen or how, therefore it does not and should not have an impact on how I live my life.

Life is the standard of value by which I judge my life and all values to be obtained in it. Death is outside of that context and is an unknowable with no value to be found in it, therefore it is irrational to have an anxiety about something that cannot be known and by which no values are possible.

People who are terrified and have fear about death are usually the same people who believe in after-lives, punishment, redemption and all other scenarios pertaining to ones 'continued' existence after the fact of ones demise.

My question to you is this. What 'meaning' can death have? Why is it a necessary condition for an individual to fear and have anxiety about an unknowable variable? Of course, my conviction is that it is not necessary at all.

Edited by RationalEgo (10/31/09 08:05 AM)

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11356263 - 10/31/09 08:05 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

when you really think about it death is the most humiliating thing we will ever have to endure

until coming face to face with our own mortality its impossible to imagine what it will feel like to slip away into the unknown

I can't imagine there is a point in our life where we feel more helpless and childlike

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11356412 - 10/31/09 08:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Death anxiety is not about what you will feel after death. :tongue:

Death anxiety is something that motivates us due to the unacceptability conscious and unconscious of becoming non existent. Much of this happens on an unconscious level. I have posted on this until I'm blue in the face. Everything from favoring male children to carry on ones line to amassing wealth to religion to building monuments to oneself through ones actions and on and on. Since you like to read, check out Earnest Beckers book, "Denial of Death" and the Hero Complex.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11357071 - 10/31/09 11:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)


I dont think what your saying is morbid at all, its ecstatic :wink:
Contemplating death is the most liberating 'exercise' possible

Quote:

"We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure by objectifying death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it.
If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthentically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle."




That is key. I like how you touch on objectifying the world (through concepts) makes it 'stale'... very true
Only talking & conceptualizing about death is still distancing it from the fact that YOU yourself will die

Quote:

"one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet"




:peace:


--------------------

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11357189 - 10/31/09 12:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Being-toward-death is a way of being in relation to death. This relates to our way of experiencing time as a time spiral, a loop, a recurrence that relate to self-projections beyond the present. As humans we relate to possibility and probability. Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".



I think this sort of uncertainty extends beyond just the subject of death.  The terms "open-minded" and "close-minded" get abused a lot by people who define them in terms of who agrees with them or not, but I think what it fundamentally comes down to is authenticity or inauthenticity concerning uncertainty.  Close-minded people are those who are inauthentic by virtue of fleeing from ambiguity, whereas an open-minded person is one who can be present in the ambiguity of life(and death), and not flee toward a sense of certainty.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Silversoul]
    #11357227 - 10/31/09 12:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11357718 - 10/31/09 01:48 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Death anxiety is not about what you will feel after death.




What you feel after death is reincarnation anxiety. I hope they have some up-to-date magazines in the waiting room.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (10/31/09 02:08 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11357736 - 10/31/09 01:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: right.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSventington
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Silversoul]
    #11357752 - 10/31/09 01:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Being-toward-death is a way of being in relation to death. This relates to our way of experiencing time as a time spiral, a loop, a recurrence that relate to self-projections beyond the present. As humans we relate to possibility and probability. Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".



I think this sort of uncertainty extends beyond just the subject of death.  The terms "open-minded" and "close-minded" get abused a lot by people who define them in terms of who agrees with them or not, but I think what it fundamentally comes down to is authenticity or inauthenticity concerning uncertainty.  Close-minded people are those who are inauthentic by virtue of fleeing from ambiguity, whereas an open-minded person is one who can be present in the ambiguity of life(and death), and not flee toward a sense of certainty.





Do you by chance watch a youtuber named professoranton? This sounds a lot like what's covered in a few of his videos (especially the ambiguity part).

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Sventington]
    #11357785 - 10/31/09 02:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sventington said:
Do you by chance watch a youtuber named professoranton? This sounds a lot like what's covered in a few of his videos (especially the ambiguity part).



Indeed.  I just recently started exploring some of the more deep, philosophical channels of YouTube, buried under mounds of sneezing pandas and keyboard-playing cats.


--------------------

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11358104 - 10/31/09 02:56 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What is essential?

It may be a cliche, but reading Heidegger is like peeling an onion. The first concern is what's inside...and inside and inside. You may wonder if it's a "present", but we are at least concerned with what is fundamentally "presence".

The drama of this presence is expressed or articulated in the arts. In Hamlet, for instance, there is a "play within a play", which is used to derive a certain reaction, and so the truth, from the illegitimate King Claudius.

Of our presence/(present?), we do not know how many layers there are. We are only able to think, dramatically - of inside and out - a play within a play. This motif, or theme of our investigation, is further modulated as presence. That is, we are still talking fundamentally about within and without, but contending with multiple layers.

The first problem that arises is we cannot actually articulate the layers "as such". As you say it, "a play within a play within a play" we can only conceive within and without.

To say "a play within a play within a play", you cannot clearly elaborate what is occurring in each layer, in the singular breath that you lay them out. To elaborate mid- sentence upon the specific character of a layer, is much too ambiguous, without previously establishing the basic situation. As you say, or seemingly "add" another layer of being, you essentially push each preceding layer back.

For instance, Shakespeare's play is a (B) play within a (A) play. But if there was another layer it would first be (C play) within (B play) within (A play). In a series, the withins only derive their identity from the completion of the expression.

Basically, the within that we are after is articulated backwards. We cannot talk "essentially" about the first play, until we establish the inner plays, and even more, we can't describe the inner plays, without the previous context of the outer plays. Thus, to explicitly articulate our presence here, we must vaguely attempt to lay out the structure of the play as a whole. That is a blunt statement, but I am basically impressing the sloping A Priori foundation for the investigation of our presence.

This is at least essential to how I've been reading Heidegger, "fragmentary and incipient" though I'm sure he would call it. Nonetheless it is the ground upon which the themes Lakefingers mentioned arise, as I have understood them. In art, the pathos is implied as "drama" for which I think Hamlet is also an excellent choice of Heideggerian character.

Also, for those of you who enjoy film, don't miss out on Charlie Kaufman; I'm curious if anyone agrees with me that he writes "Heideggerian" cinema. He gets right down to the explicit modulation of layers, as well as pathos. Check out "Synechdoche NY" (With Philip Seymour Hoffman), or less so, "Adaptation" (which is one of my favorites.)

Thanks for the premise Lakefingers, and speaking of movies, nice choice on the avatar.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (10/31/09 08:25 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: daytripper23]
    #11358387 - 10/31/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Just watched "Synechdoche"  twice.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (10/31/09 03:54 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11358399 - 10/31/09 03:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The name is 'Synechdoche twice' or your short-term memory is going?


--------------------

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11358421 - 10/31/09 03:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Nice. Did you see it...on weed?



I have to see it a second time, and I think I may be tripping. (still rocking the morning glories)

The only thing is its long and circular; but naturally I can imagine this working out.

Edited by daytripper23 (10/31/09 05:41 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: daytripper23]
    #11358487 - 10/31/09 04:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No. I am high all the time now on the white light of eternity.  I used to meditate.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11358526 - 10/31/09 04:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like a brain aneurysm. You are probably about to stroke out. :sorry:


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11358736 - 10/31/09 04:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No. I am high all the time now on the white light of eternity.  I used to meditate.:satansmoking:




it's actually a golden light :grin:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: deff]
    #11358749 - 10/31/09 05:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No that's golden showers.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11358826 - 10/31/09 05:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

oh god all these years :blush:


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11358842 - 10/31/09 05:17 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Tried all that. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.

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OfflineJasonVira
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11359829 - 10/31/09 08:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Excellent. I couldn't agree more!  :grin:





um...



Is this thread about what-his-face?


you know...


whats-his-face  :rolleyes:


--------------------
If you have any commentary about my posts that may break the rules. Bring it to my thread in the OTD forum

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11524605&page=0&vc=1#11524605

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11362588 - 11/01/09 01:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No. I am high all the time now on the white light of eternity.  I used to meditate.:satansmoking:




Ah! I eat only light (Jasmuheen diet). I didn't know you can get high off it too. Maybe I'll make some light-brownies tonight and invite some friends over to get full and stoned off of.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11362622 - 11/01/09 01:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Death anxiety is not about what you will feel after death.




What you feel after death is reincarnation anxiety. I hope they have some up-to-date magazines in the waiting room.




:thumbup:

:lol:


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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: Silversoul]
    #11362670 - 11/01/09 01:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11362692 - 11/01/09 01:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

^ I've got nuthin to add cept another

:thumbup:


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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: andrewss]
    #11362727 - 11/01/09 01:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

From my grave wandering in the cemeteries this Halloween:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11362756 - 11/01/09 01:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Eat the dead.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11362768 - 11/01/09 01:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Depends on how fresh they are


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: andrewss]
    #11362783 - 11/01/09 01:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you use good hot sauce you can hardly tell the difference.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11362827 - 11/01/09 01:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

hmmm seems like were dissolving this nice thread

welp heres me preachin the good word to the heathens last night :wink:



i look a lil pissed :strokebeard:


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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: andrewss]
    #11366348 - 11/01/09 11:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"To one bent on age, death will come as a release. I feel this quite strongly now that I have grown old myself and have come to regard death like an old debt, at long last to be discharged. Still, instinctively one does everything possible to postpone the final settlement. Such is the game that Nature plays with us."

Einstein

you posted this in another thread and it seems to fit here as well

I have a feeling that Einstein was philosophically confused

he blatantly contradicted himself concerning his theological beliefs on numerous occasions

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behavior on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light, but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress."

"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible
and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled
by the luminous figure of the Nazarene...
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual
presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word.
No myth is filled with such life."

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."


"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

"The only real valuable thing is intuition."

"I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice."

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion. I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

"In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)"

does this not seem contradictory?

some of the quotes are good though

“The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them.”

Edited by Life Upon Death (11/01/09 11:32 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11367707 - 11/02/09 08:43 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That's the problem with thinking that because someone is an "expert" in something they are an expert in general.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11367739 - 11/02/09 08:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That's the problem with thinking that because someone is an "expert" in something they are an expert in general.:tongue:




good point

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11367754 - 11/02/09 08:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I used to do this all the time. If I was in awe of someones ability in a certain area I looked to them as a role model and basically gave them hero status. They could do no wrong.

For most of my life I also did this with women. If she was beautiful I somehow equated this with the belief that she had to be a beautiful person in general. Boy was I in for a lot of self imposed suffering.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/02/09 08:57 AM)

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11367774 - 11/02/09 09:01 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I used to do this all the time. If I was in awe of someones ability in a certain area I looked to them as a role model and basically gave them hero status. They could do no wrong.

For most of my life I also did this with women. If she was beautiful I somehow equated this with the belief that she had to be a beautiful person in general. Boy was I in for a lot of self imposed suffering.:lol:




dammit! why can't beautiful women be beautiful in all possible ways!

cruel cruel world

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11367835 - 11/02/09 09:15 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

For the same reasons we aren't cool in most ways. I had a very interesting discussion with Veritas last night that touched on this. Unfortunately I'm not up to her intellectual prowess to present it here, yet anyway. It centered around the Buddhist concept of "Dukka" (spelling?) and what is really meant by the Buddha when he refers to "suffering" which she believes has been miss translated in the west.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11367879 - 11/02/09 09:28 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
For the same reasons we aren't cool in most ways. I had a very interesting discussion with Veritas last night that touched on this. Unfortunately I'm not up to her intellectual prowess to present it here, yet anyway. It centered around the Buddhist concept of "Dukka" (spelling?) and what is really meant by the Buddha when he refers to "suffering" which she believes has been miss translated in the west.




I was just joking

we're all fucked up :laugh:

I think beauty could really fuck with a girls mind

shes gonna learn very early on that she has the power to manipulate with her beauty

not all beautiful girls are manipulative of course but its gotta be tempting

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11367942 - 11/02/09 09:43 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Once you find a survival tactic that works you rarely look further.

I know you were kidding, that's my game here half the time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11368136 - 11/02/09 10:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Sometimes i suddenly get this feeling that i will die and what shocks me most is the impression that i have to do it alone. At times, rarely, do i get this strong impression of the inevitability of having to stop being, and that i'll have to experience that all alone. That scares me most about the whole thing.

Thanks for bringing this subject on. I'm reading all the posts.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11368589 - 11/02/09 11:39 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Funny how we are all different. I would prefer to die alone. I guess ultimately I'm a private person. The thought of people around me while I die gives me the willies. This includes the people I love.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11368617 - 11/02/09 11:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

V, Hue & I have a big party planned for ya! :birthday:


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11368618 - 11/02/09 11:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It centered around the Buddhist concept of "Dukka" (spelling?) and what is really meant by the Buddha when he refers to "suffering" which she believes has been miss translated in the west.




There is no real translation of 'Dukkha' but its a concept to convey unfullfillment, dissatisfactory-ness, which could be taken as suffering.
As if something doesnt fulfill you, then its kinda like suffering, as it leaves you wanting more

Its just seeing that all of this, no matter how tasty, its all transient
Its not saying it bad, its just saying look at it, it will not satisfy you for very long
If you see something wont truly satisfy you, then you let go of it
You still play with it, your just not attached anymore...

:peace:


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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11368631 - 11/02/09 11:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

me too, I prefer to be alone when I Feel like I'm gonna puke lol so I can only imagine I would feel the same about death

dogs also seem to prefer to die alone even though they are highly social animals

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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11368708 - 11/02/09 12:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Funny how we are all different. I would prefer to die alone. I guess ultimately I'm a private person. The thought of people around me while I die gives me the willies. This includes the people I love.




It's not so much not wanting anyone around. It's more the thing in itself. Having to face the experience of ending. I find that scary because i'll have to do it alive... unless is die fast enough or in my sleep.

I wouldn't want people around me... that would be terrible! I'll probably need to 'concentrate' myself.
I don't know. I can't remember having died before...:ohwell:

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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11368729 - 11/02/09 12:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Most people say they want to die in their sleep

When i die, i want to be fully conscious of it happening... how exciting!
I hope i have as much enthusiasm when it actually happens...

If i remember correctly Albert Hoffman took LSD before he died as he said he wanted to die 'consciously', wow!

:peace:


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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Chronic7]
    #11368760 - 11/02/09 12:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:

I hope i have as much enthusiasm when it actually happens...

:peace:




Well said...

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Chronic7]
    #11368900 - 11/02/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

unfullfillment,

This word comes close. The incongruence of our logical and aware higher brain. It knows more than it can handle. It cannot come to terms with it's own decay and death. And this is something that the mind can never ever resolve. Hence its dilemma and great suffering. Neurotic suffering.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Chronic7]
    #11368917 - 11/02/09 12:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Most people say they want to die in their sleep

When i die, i want to be fully conscious of it happening... how exciting!
I hope i have as much enthusiasm when it actually happens...

If i remember correctly Albert Hoffman took LSD before he died as he said he wanted to die 'consciously', wow!

:peace:





Under certain conditions I agree. If I was in terrible pain however I would be willing to forgo that pleasure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11368937 - 11/02/09 12:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

GIVE ME THE DRUGS!!!

:peace:


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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Chronic7]
    #11368943 - 11/02/09 12:40 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

It's all the same in the end.:wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblerebus_minus
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11369453 - 11/02/09 01:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by rebus_minus (11/02/09 01:46 PM)

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11369849 - 11/02/09 02:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

unfullfillment,

This word comes close. The incongruence of our logical and aware higher brain. It knows more than it can handle. It cannot come to terms with it's own decay and death. And this is something that the mind can never ever resolve. Hence its dilemma and great suffering. Neurotic suffering.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineTrippinNinjaBuddha
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11375214 - 11/03/09 08:15 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I have the idea that 'dukkha' means wheel with a broken spoke.  Literally, something of value and specific purpose that is not working correctly.

And the tools that Buddha offered 'fix the wheel' per say.

Couldn't say exactly where I have this notion from, but I must have read it somewhere a long time ago.


--------------------
Jumped in a river, what did I see?
Black eyed angels swimming with me
Moon full of stars and astral cars, all the figures I used to see
All my lovers were there with me
All my past and all my futures
We went to heaven in a little rowboat
There was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11376062 - 11/03/09 10:52 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Life Upon Death said:
I have a feeling that Einstein was philosophically confused

he blatantly contradicted himself concerning his theological beliefs on numerous occasions





Exciting topic!

One thing though: I'm an atheist, am I not allowed to admire the alleged words and deeds of Jesus as valuable acts in themselves?

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11376112 - 11/03/09 11:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup:

It's all the same in the end.:wink:




I prefer to live my life as a means, not an end.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11376358 - 11/03/09 11:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

well good for you I guess.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11376400 - 11/03/09 11:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

dont patronize him, say whatsup!!! :lol:

:jefferson:


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Jesus loves you.

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: andrewss]
    #11376456 - 11/03/09 11:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Don't mind him. Old farts often get farsighted.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11376470 - 11/03/09 12:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

He hangs here on his cross, showing us how we will end up... bastid :lol:

I want to beeee forever younggggg :crazy2:


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Jesus loves you.

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: andrewss]
    #11376515 - 11/03/09 12:08 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It really is just like Jesus.

Don't worry, we'll ditch him when the shit happens. :smirk:

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: andrewss]
    #11376579 - 11/03/09 12:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The problem with youth is you don't know how valuable it is.

Generally in youth you think that you are heading somewhere better and so you think that current pleasures should be better. Then often you look back on those golden moments and wish you had realized how that was going to be a high point.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/03/09 12:18 PM)

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11376605 - 11/03/09 12:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Awwwww schucks


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Jesus loves you.

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11376606 - 11/03/09 12:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The problem with youth is you don't know how valuable it is.

Generally in youth you think that you are heading somewhere better and so you think that current pleasures should be better. Then often you look back on those golden moments and wish you had realized how that was going to be a high point.




and we reject that reality even when our parents let us know how shitty it is to be them :laugh:

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: andrewss]
    #11376610 - 11/03/09 12:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11376693 - 11/03/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Life Upon Death said:
I have a feeling that Einstein was philosophically confused

he blatantly contradicted himself concerning his theological beliefs on numerous occasions





Exciting topic!

One thing though: I'm an atheist, am I not allowed to admire the alleged words and deeds of Jesus as valuable acts in themselves?




"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. . ." – Mere Christianity

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? - Mere Christianity

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. – Mere Christianity, pages 40-41.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11376714 - 11/03/09 12:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

ohhhhhhhhhh CS Lewis


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11376748 - 11/03/09 12:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God:

He talks like Jesus was the only supposed great moral teacher or that many others in history haven't said similar things.

Plus there is no way to really know what Jesus said exactly. If he really wanted to be remembered he should have written his words down himself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11376751 - 11/03/09 12:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11376764 - 11/03/09 12:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The problem with youth is you don't know how valuable it is.

Generally in youth you think that you are heading somewhere better and so you think that current pleasures should be better. Then often you look back on those golden moments and wish you had realized how that was going to be a high point.




:thumbup:

But thinking it's going to get better keeps most of the youth going. They miss the fullness of the moment in order to stay alive, or worse, they stay alive and know it will only get duller.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11376804 - 11/03/09 12:50 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That's life. There's nothing to be done about it. Except whine.:hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/03/09 12:50 PM)

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11376811 - 11/03/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Life Upon Death said:
Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Life Upon Death said:
I have a feeling that Einstein was philosophically confused

he blatantly contradicted himself concerning his theological beliefs on numerous occasions





Exciting topic!

One thing though: I'm an atheist, am I not allowed to admire the alleged words and deeds of Jesus as valuable acts in themselves?




"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. . ." � Mere Christianity

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? - Mere Christianity

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. � Mere Christianity, pages 40-41.




I could Google for quotes too. I'm here to talk. Do you have anything to say?




so google some quotes theN

lets have a quote-off

Edited by Life Upon Death (11/03/09 12:52 PM)

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11381571 - 11/04/09 03:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11382054 - 11/04/09 07:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"It is hard to have patience with people who say "There is no death" or "Death doesn't matter." There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter."

C.S. Lewis again

"For everything there is a season,
And a time for every matter under heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die;
A time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal;
A time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to throw away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to seek, and a time to lose;
A time to keep, and a time to throw away;
A time to tear, and a time to sew;
A time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate,
A time for war, and a time for peace."

    Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

14For we know that the Law is (Z)spiritual, but I am (AA)of flesh, (AB)sold (AC)into bondage to sin.

15For what I am doing, (AD)I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with (AF)the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

17So now, (AG)no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

19For (AI)the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then (AK)the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL)the inner man,

23but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (AO)the law of sin which is in my members.

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death?

25(AR)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin.

Romans 7

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on (L)the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, (M)the things of the Spirit.

6(N)For the mind set on the flesh is (O)death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind set on the flesh is (P)hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8and those who are (Q)in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not (R)in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God (S)dwells in you But (T)if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

10(U)If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of Him who (V)raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised (X)Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8

22For (AG)as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

23But each in his own order: Christ (AH)the first fruits, after that (AI)those who are Christ's at (AJ)His coming,

24then comes the end, when He hands over (AK)the kingdom to the (AL)God and Father, when He has abolished (AM)all rule and all authority and power.

25For He must reign (AN)until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy that will be (AO)abolished is death.

27For (AP)HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "(AQ)All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

28When (AR)all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that (AS)God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11382331 - 11/04/09 08:58 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Booby said:
Perhaps it isn't easy for Jason, or any of us, to see how the Ouroboros represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself and re-examining it's beginning and end, from the various perspective points of perception.

Jason is a re-incarnation of Cain and and conceives his own reality complete with supportive roles that do little in the way of working thru a false premise thus reinforcing Cain's own self image and self-approval ad infinitum.




An excellent thing to wedge into the conversation.





Apparently you said the magic word and my mask exploded.

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Booby]
    #11389143 - 11/05/09 04:54 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)


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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11389510 - 11/05/09 08:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Beautiful. Was that Kate Winslet at the end? My dream girl. I would forgo death for some of that fantasy. Until the fantasy wore off in about six weeks.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/05/09 08:07 AM)

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11389843 - 11/05/09 09:54 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Checked it out at IMDB. It's her.
I haven't seen this version of Hamlet yet. Plan to now.

I haven't given Kate Winslet any thought, but looking at the picture of her at IMDB, I agree, she does have an inherent, well-carried beauty.

But I'm very picky when it comes to personality and would probably have to spend six weeks with her to decide whether I could fall in love. :satansmoking:

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11389885 - 11/05/09 10:01 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In Thoughts about Death Mats Furberg says his parents would read a psalm every night, a psalm about dying, and it frightened him every night. "I imagined that mom and dad would be dead in the morning. When I woke up, I listened to their breathing. If I heard nothing, I didn't dare touch them for fear that they would be cold - like ice ... That I would die didn't occur to me."

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11390247 - 11/05/09 11:11 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Did you watch" Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind"? She was at her best.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11395527 - 11/06/09 01:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'd have to see it again and all her other movies to say.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11395558 - 11/06/09 01:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)



She is so damn beautiful, and eternal sunshine was an excellent movie.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11395632 - 11/06/09 02:18 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You're in love with the idea and retouched image of her, not her actual person with reeking morning breath, an uneven hue, and that vaguely contorted face she gets when she has to shit just after sex.

We often talk about breaking down ideologies, propaganda, theology, etc around here, but apparently Hollywood beauty is still holy ground.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11395690 - 11/06/09 02:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
You're in love with the idea and retouched image of her, not her actual person with reeking morning breath, an uneven hue, and that vaguely contorted face she gets when she has to shit just after sex.






No, I appreciate her acting talent and her beauty. In interviews her personality has also appealed to me too. Regardless of whether the picture is touched up or not I have seen her in many movies and photos, but you are right that I have never seen her face whilst taking a shit after sex. I'm willing to wager that neither have you.

Quote:



We often talk about breaking down ideologies, propaganda, theology, etc around here, but apparently Hollywood beauty is still holy ground.




Is there such a thing as 'hollywood' beauty? Or are there just individuals that we each consider to be beautiful or not?

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11395903 - 11/06/09 05:28 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Did you watch" Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind"? She was at her best.




I fell in love with Tangerine

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11395970 - 11/06/09 06:13 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yes indeed. That whole movie was amazing and very strange. Jim Carey makes a great serious actor because he can't help bringing his humor in when it's appropriate.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11424710 - 11/10/09 08:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11427330 - 11/10/09 04:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11427428 - 11/10/09 05:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Does the thought of death have to be so debilitating as when we are in full denial?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11431054 - 11/11/09 02:53 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Is it debilitating? The neurosis you often mention seems to show that denying death actually helps most people function and survive.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11431635 - 11/11/09 07:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It does in a miserable way. What I'm asking is, is that the only way.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11431751 - 11/11/09 08:31 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I still don't see how obsessing over death is important. One does not need to be in 'denial' of death to just not be interested in it. It's not a source of knowledge, so should not our focus be more on living our life rather than being anxious about the unknown?

Life should be evaluated by its own standard not by a standard of death.

Not only that but my basic reasoning on this is that all available evidence points to the position that conciousness does not survive death. If this is the case then why contemplate that which you are never going to experience?

I have no death 'anxiety' because I do not fear that which I cannot know nor experience. Its a simple as that. :shrug:

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11431909 - 11/11/09 09:18 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Simple as that:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11432180 - 11/11/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11432192 - 11/11/09 10:29 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It does in a miserable way. What I'm asking is, is that the only way.




For some it seems so, until a guru like you walks over to your anxious neighbor and changes that.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11432225 - 11/11/09 10:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

My aunt has breast cancer that has spread. Both she and my mom are deeply religious and both are totally panicked. Seems the fairy tales fall away when hit with a big enough hammer.


--------------------

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11432236 - 11/11/09 10:37 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:

Because of this (and simply browsing history of art, literature, philosophy, science, history itself) we see that death is in fact a profound and fertile source of knowledge qua what is learned through fact, representation, thought, learning and experience.




None of these apply to 'knowledge gained from death qua death' but they all most certainly apply to knowledge of 'death anxiety' and its many manifestations in the human mind.

My whole point is that this anxiety is unnecessary and irrational.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11432263 - 11/11/09 10:43 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
My aunt has breast cancer that has spread. Both she and my mom are deeply religious and both are totally panicked. Seems the fairy tales fall away when hit with a big enough hammer.





I have seen this so many times. The person who claims no anxiety is living in the eye of the storm. Usually young and healthy. It's calm, nothing dangerous is looming. You are calling the shots. Then one day that's over. And it doesn't even have to be a physical problem. It can be a divorce, financial disaster, or many other things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11432276 - 11/11/09 10:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Then one day that's over. And it doesn't even have to be a physical problem. It can be a divorce, financial disaster, or...




being dissed on the internet.


--------------------

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11432290 - 11/11/09 10:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You noticed that too.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11433038 - 11/11/09 12:59 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

And my point is that anxiety is not rational and cannot be preemptively curbed by rationality in all eventual cases.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11433222 - 11/11/09 01:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The,imo, illusion that one can rationally understand themselves and the world of humanity without taking into account the basically neurotic emotional landscape of the human mind has just found another way to be illogical.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11433353 - 11/11/09 01:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
And my point is that anxiety is not rational and cannot be preemptively curbed by rationality in all eventual cases.





What other antidote is there to irrationality other than rationality?

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11433378 - 11/11/09 01:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The,imo, illusion that one can rationally understand themselves and the world of humanity without taking into account the basically neurotic emotional landscape of the human mind has just found another way to be illogical.




Introspection helps identify and uproot the neurotic. Introspection allows one to identify and understand the causes of ones emotions. Which emotions are irrational (fear of god and death, jealousy due to lack of self-esteem, etc) and which emotions come from a valid rational cause (anger at an attack on ones values, happiness in relation to increase esteem, sadness at the loss of a value, etc). one can certainly eliminate the irrational causes of irrational emotions.

Understanding the world around you is a product of percieving the world through the senses and understanding it through a process of reason. Recognising the reality of cause and effect, that every existent phenomena has a cause and that it can be known is a part of that process.

That reason is absolute and allows for knowledge and the proper integration of that knowledge is the fundamental entomological notion that allows one to live rationally in an irrational society.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11433522 - 11/11/09 02:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

one can certainly eliminate the irrational causes of irrational emotions.


Yes it's possible for sure but only to an extent. Spock was a fictional character only and as can be seen, the writers who created his perfect rationality were silly, cause he wasn't rational much of the time. 

To assume that one can eliminate irrationality completely is being, imo, irrational. So the rational person takes into account the often irrational behavior of emotions. How interesting.

Communication between the reptilian, mid brain, and neo cortex is somewhat faulty as Koestler stated in his book Ghost in the Machine. Most likely because of the evolutionary sequence of their appearance. We haven't had a highly developed neo cortex for very long and smooth communication with the other parts of the brain has not been smoothed out by the evolutionary process. We are a work in progress.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11433652 - 11/11/09 02:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
one can certainly eliminate the irrational causes of irrational emotions.


Yes it's possible for sure but only to an extent. Spock was a fictional character only and as can be seen, the writers who created his perfect rationality were silly, cause he wasn't rational much of the time. 





You forget that the Vulcans were not 'rational' per se, they were 'logical and 'suppressed' emotions in favour of pure logic. I stated elsewhere only a moment ago in the other thread how logic is not enough. Logic is just a method for weeding out contradictions in ones thinking. Spock was certainly not the archetypal Objectvist.

Quote:


To assume that one can eliminate irrationality completely is being, imo, irrational. So the rational person takes into account the often irrational behavior of emotions. How interesting.






I think irrationality can be eliminated completely if one can identify and eliminate the cause of ones irrational emotions. It obviously may take many many years to do, but I think its certainly a possible and attainable goal for a commited thinker.

Quote:


Communication between the reptilian, mid brain, and neo cortex is somewhat faulty as Koestler stated in his book Ghost in the Machine. Most likely because of the evolutionary sequence of their appearance. We haven't had a highly developed neo cortex for very long and smooth communication with the other parts of the brain has not been smoothed out by the evolutionary process. We are a work in progress.




I can't say I know much about this, but I would agree that human beings have not 'finished' evolving. But I do not think we are at the 'mercy' of evolution either. The main evolution that must take place is the evolution of the mind and that is mostly volitional.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11433709 - 11/11/09 02:26 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think irrationality can be eliminated completely if one can identify and eliminate the cause of ones irrational emotions. It obviously may take many many years to do, but I think its certainly a possible and attainable goal for a commited thinker.

Know anyone living who has? Are you there? Past humans like Epictetus comes to mind but one would have had to know him so that doesn't count.

I really doubt this contention. Perfection is not an option imo. But maybe you will be the one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11433736 - 11/11/09 02:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'd say Aristotle and Ayn Rand were pretty close, but they both still had their personal flaws. I can't say there has been a case in history that I can name of anyone who has achieved that, but that does not mean it it has not happened or that it is not a possibility for the future.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11433750 - 11/11/09 02:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

one can dream.

although I seem to have lost the ability.:tongue2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11438557 - 11/12/09 02:37 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The,imo, illusion that one can rationally understand themselves and the world of humanity without taking into account the basically neurotic emotional landscape of the human mind has just found another way to be illogical.




hmmm

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11438558 - 11/12/09 02:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

Lakefingers said:
And my point is that anxiety is not rational and cannot be preemptively curbed by rationality in all eventual cases.





What other antidote is there to irrationality other than rationality?




Are we talking about antidotes? What is the ailment?

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11438569 - 11/12/09 02:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Irrationality will not be weeded out completely. The impulse to be rational for
instance, is irrational. All of your rational enterprises melt into the sea of
irrationality, which is the primordial soup of the human lifeworld.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11438804 - 11/12/09 05:12 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
The impulse to be rational for instance, is irrational.





You are claiming that rationality has an irrational cause? Contradiction much?

Quote:


All of your rational enterprises melt into the sea of
irrationality




Speak for yourself.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11439021 - 11/12/09 07:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11439097 - 11/12/09 08:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11439179 - 11/12/09 08:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I have seen many who claim to worship at the alter of rationality do so because they can't deal with the fact that they are emotionally chaotic and the fact that that is a long term feature of the human landscape (for now at least:tongue:) But you can see their irrational emotions whenever they are challenged. They lose their cool and get pissy.:lol: How rational. I do that shit all the time. I gave up the pretense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/12/09 08:26 AM)

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11439428 - 11/12/09 09:33 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Despite that you tell me to shut up without providing refutation or rationale, but only by demonstrating an irrational, sored ego, I will go on, because I think there are crevices in your hard-shelled, irrational objectivist doctrine that will allow the seeds of philosophy at large to be planted and perhaps before you mid-30's grow into something more.





I did not tell you to shut up, I told you to speak for yourself when you took the liberty of making an unsupported claim about me. Not only that but you make sly ad hominems refering to my so called 'sore ego'. Why don't you try debating ideas, it makes for a much more 'rational' discourse.

Since you have also made the claim that Objectivism is irrational, I challenge you to back up that claim (would this not be a good debate topic in a new sub-forum?).

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11439441 - 11/12/09 09:35 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
How is that a contradiction?

Where does rationality come from?
What does your drive to imitate and uphold it ground itself on?

Think about it.
Seriously.
For a few years at least.
Evolutionary perspective might be one, simple and tangible, angle to start with.





Rationality comes from reasoning on the basis of evidence and logic (non-contradiction : see Aristotle).

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

All of your rational enterprises melt into the sea of
irrationality




Speak for yourself.




Quote:


Sure, I have no clue.
I'll let you speak for everyone else.
After all, you know what's up (in there, and does it stink much?).




Just speaking for yourself would be sufficient. I don't intend to speak for anyone. Nor do I speak about anyone unless I can actually substantiate a claim with evidence, reason and logic. I'm not certain that you take the same approach.

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11439560 - 11/12/09 10:12 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11439578 - 11/12/09 10:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11439582 - 11/12/09 10:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
I'm not allowed to make claims about humans if you feel that they include you in a way you don't feel comfortable viewing yourself?

The burden of proof is in your hands to demonstrate how objectivism exists in a vaccuum of rationality, separated from its historicity.





You were replying specifically to me and used the term 'your'. Its not unfounded of me to assert that you were directing the comment toward myself, even if you were including 'all others'.

I have not made any claim that ' exists in a vaccuum of rationality, separated from its historicity'. But you however have made the claim that Objectivism is irrational.

The burden of proof is on you Sir.

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11439584 - 11/12/09 10:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
...Rationality comes from reasoning on the basis of evidence and logic (non-contradiction : see Aristotle).




Which only begs the questions I asked you. What are the grounds of this? How does rationality found itself?




It founds itself on a mind capable of grasping facts and integrating knowledge.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11439600 - 11/12/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Rationality comes from reasoning on the basis of evidence and logic (non-contradiction : see Aristotle).



So the reason for reason is reason.  Ever heard of circular logic?


--------------------

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Silversoul]
    #11439617 - 11/12/09 10:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Rationality comes from reasoning on the basis of evidence and logic (non-contradiction : see Aristotle).



So the reason for reason is reason.  Ever heard of circular logic?




The basis for rationality, as I said above, is a mind capable of grasping facts and integrating knowledge.

Rationality is a choice. One can choose not to reason and as a consequence act completely irrationally. The reason for reason is 'survival' of ones conciousness and ability to perceive reality correctly.

"Rationality is the recognition of the fact that existence exists, that nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it, which is thinking—that the mind is one’s only judge of values and one’s only guide of action—that reason is an absolute that permits no compromise—that a concession to the irrational invalidates one’s consciousness and turns it from the task of perceiving to the task of faking reality—that the alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind—that the acceptance of a mystical invention is a wish for the annihilation of existence and, properly, annihilates one’s consciousness." AR

Edited by RationalEgo (11/12/09 11:15 AM)

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11439749 - 11/12/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11439762 - 11/12/09 10:52 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)


"Rationality is the recognition of the fact that existence exists, that nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it, which is thinking—that the mind is one’s only judge of values and one’s only guide of action—that reason is an absolute that permits no compromise—that a concession to the irrational invalidates one’s consciousness and turns it from the task of perceiving to the task of faking reality—that the alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind—that the acceptance of a mystical invention is a wish for the annihilation of existence and, properly, annihilates one’s consciousness." AR



That's an interesting quote.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11440020 - 11/12/09 11:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Sigh.

Objectivism is irrational because it is an -ism,





Sigh indeed, you start off with a complete fallacy, lets see how stupid this gets.....

Quote:


i.e. a cloak covering many different streams of interpretations and desires converging under the vague hood "objectivism". The interests of these people who may or may not call themselves objectivists vary from what Rand meant and what each of them means by objectivism, but also their varying interpretations and implementations create this incongruent beast of objectiv-ism -- a splitting, differing, not necessarily self-same field of philosophical inquiry.






I'm still waiting for a critique of O'ism. At this point you have just spewed inanities and ad hominems about those who call themselves 'Oists'. What Objectivism is is very well defined, please go and read a book or two when you have the time.

Quote:


Sometimes irrational decisions are in fact optimal, even as demonstrating in Ayn Rand's life choices, philosophy, philosophical approach and the existentialism present in her books. As a philosophy it is irrational, because it is embodied.






More nonsense. I am still awaiting a rational criticism. But then you are not in support of the rational are you? So far I have seen exactly what I expected, irrational nonsense.

Quote:


It is found in humans, which are essentially, not irrational, but a-rational creatures, affected in moments of rationale by mood, stress, inebriation, group psychology, hidden motives, etc, etc. The very drive to objectivism and to identification with it, is itself not rational. But also because mankind through so many philosophies, -ologies and ethical systems has continually failed to realize his inherent irrationality. Instead he suppresses this, thinking he acts as a whole or at least in regard to the dogma or program, by perfectly rational or deductive means.






It is you assertion that humanity is 'inherently' irrational. Again Sir, I say to you, speak for yourself. The evidence of the amazing piece of technology in front of you called a 'computer' is enough to disprove that hypothesis.

Quote:


Because Rand's texts are themselves rife with contradictions, for instance regarding her material determinism conflicting with her concepts of free will.






Evidence please. I have yet to find a single contradiction in Rand's philosophy. Please direct me to a source for this assertion.

Quote:


Because all philosophy begins with sense data (irrational). Because objectivism is a quasireligion. Ad nauseam.






Explain how 'sense data' is irrational and also explain how Objectivism is a quasi-religion? Does Objectivism ask you to take anything on faith? I think not.

Quote:



In other words, it's time to outgrow objectivism. That doesn't mean you can't keep it with you. Like Rand failed to, we must look at ourselves and our philosophies as mirroring our lives (life experiences), and as grounded in psychological motivations behind our metaphysical, epistemological and ethical objectives, rather than seeing our thought as some cleanly circumscribed rationale.




So now you move into the position of giving fatherly advice. Since you took the liberty of giving me some advice, let me give some to you. Next time you try to critique anything, at least have the intellectual honesty to read some Rand and at least try to form a proper argument.

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11440061 - 11/12/09 11:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

"Rationality is the recognition of the fact that existence exists, that nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it, which is thinking�that the mind is one�s only judge of values and one�s only guide of action�that reason is an absolute that permits no compromise�that a concession to the irrational invalidates one�s consciousness and turns it from the task of perceiving to the task of faking reality�that the alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind�that the acceptance of a mystical invention is a wish for the annihilation of existence and, properly, annihilates one�s consciousness." AR



That's an interesting quote.




That it is. All of my observations confirm the validity of this quote.

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440079 - 11/12/09 11:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Woe, your rational method hath defeated me like a scaly beast from irrational hell.

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11440094 - 11/12/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You made a whole bunch of baseless assertions with no logical or reasonable arguments in defence of them. You defeated yourself. :shrug:

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440155 - 11/12/09 12:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11440291 - 11/12/09 12:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In my life, I've met exactly one Objectivist who was even slightly open-minded.  Those who take one person's entire philosophy as their own are mindless drones as far as I'm concerned.  Real thinkers incorporate the ideas of others and critically analyze them to come their own conclusions.  I think that's this one exception that I mentioned was someone open-minded, since he was also a Robert Heinlein fan.


--------------------

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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440345 - 11/12/09 12:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)


It is you assertion that humanity is 'inherently' irrational. Again Sir, I say to you, speak for yourself. The evidence of the amazing piece of technology in front of you called a 'computer' is enough to disprove that hypothesis.


Wow are you a "true believer" or what. That a computer exists and was developed by man is proof that man is a inherently rational animal.

You sumpthin else.:lol:

Were is the evidence of this rationality in stealing, fowling our nest, wars of greed and fear, religious fanaticism, child abuse, patriotism, and a million other irrational states you, I and everyone else find ourselves in often enough?

Yes we can act rationally at times and yes we are irrational at times and there is plenty of evidence of this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11440355 - 11/12/09 12:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
You may lecture me about Rand, but from what I gather about your personality beyond the net, you could've been in one of the classes I've taught on the very subject.





Thats ironic since it is you that has been lecturing me about Rand.

Quote:


If you reread what I wrote (a few times?) you might find that you misread it and picked it apart because you are (upset? and) because you simply didn't reflect on the connotations of what's in front of you.





I read and reflected on the connotations. I judged them as nonsense. Since you made no reasonable and logical defence of them, I'm sticking to my position for now. It is up to you to make a reasonable argument if you wish to change my mind. I am very open to reason, but very closed to baseless assertions.

Quote:


The logical arguments are based in hundreds of texts and general philosophical and scientific theory method.





I bow to your vast knowledge. :rolleyes:

Quote:


Nothing I said above was at base out of the ordinary for critique of rationality or critique of Ayn Rand's objectivism. For your own sake, I suggest reading critical texts on Rand/objectivism and studying more philosophy before you make up your mind.




Nothing you said was reasonable or logical nor did you provide evidence for your assertions. I have read many criticisms of Rand and yours was by far the weakest load of nonsense yet. FYI I have studied philosophy for the past ten years, everything from Plato, Aristotle to Kant, Hume, Hegel, Descartes and of course Rand.

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Silversoul]
    #11440374 - 11/12/09 12:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hm...
One thing I notice from other objectivists I've met at the Shroomery is that they tend to put rationalism and irrationalism against each other... as if r & irr have some inverse relationship, but also distinct exclusiveness. Maybe if we called one rationalism and the other world... or maybe if we understood that they don't threaten each other and that they are theoretical concepts, and that criticizing one doesn't mean you reject the other. :smile:

I haven't read Robert Heinlein where should I start?

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11440387 - 11/12/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

It is you assertion that humanity is 'inherently' irrational. Again Sir, I say to you, speak for yourself. The evidence of the amazing piece of technology in front of you called a 'computer' is enough to disprove that hypothesis.


Wow are you a "true believer" or what. That a computer exists and was developed by man is proof that man is a inherently rational animal.

You sumpthin else.:lol:

Were is the evidence of this rationality in stealing, fowling our nest, wars of greed and fear, religious fanaticism, child abuse, patriotism, and a million other irrational states you, I and everyone else find ourselves in often enough?

Yes we can act rationally at times and yes we are irrational at times and there is plenty of evidence of this.




Ice, his assertion was that humanity was 'inherently' irrational, meaning by nature. So of course, the computer in front of his face is enough evidence to disprove this. :smile:

We are capable of irrationality by choice, but we are not irrational by nature.

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11440392 - 11/12/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
I haven't read Robert Heinlein where should I start?



Stranger in a Strange Land is one of his most classic works.  He's got a lot of the same libertarian individualism to him as Rand, but without all the pretentiousness.


--------------------

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440427 - 11/12/09 12:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I disagree with you, you see.
See.
Pull head back from screen.
See.
:lol:

Most of your posts have dealt with Rand or objectivism in some sense. You're on that kind of track. So when I engage you I engage that and that's what I get in return, as well as that being most of what's in the foreground anyhow.


Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:


The logical arguments are based in hundreds of texts and general philosophical and scientific theory method.





I bow to your vast knowledge. :rolleyes:





This is the last petty point I engage. You asked where I was coming from. I told you. I'm at the Shroomery, I'm not going to put foot notes into replies written on the fly. The point was not what you insinuate, as I'm sure you can figure out. But internetz iz serious buziness... :mushroom2:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440467 - 11/12/09 12:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Ice, his assertion was that humanity was 'inherently' irrational, meaning by nature.

If course this only states one side of the coin, man is inherently irrational and man is inherently rational. This is obvious.

Outside of that there is no evidence that man can ever be only one or the other. I would be more than grateful for a little more balance however.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/12/09 12:45 PM)

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11440522 - 11/12/09 12:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think that Man has no 'inherent' irrationality or rationality. Man has only inherent 'volition' to choose whether to think and to act rationally or to not think, and act irrationally as a result.

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440536 - 11/12/09 12:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Ice, his assertion was that humanity was 'inherently' irrational, meaning by nature. So of course, the computer in front of his face is enough evidence to disprove this. :smile:

We are capable of irrationality by choice, but we are not irrational by nature.




Correction. I said that rationality seethes into irrationality. Etc, etc.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440573 - 11/12/09 12:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

or to not think, and act irrationally as a result.

Come on man.  Man always thinks and then acts. He either acts skillfully or unskillfully.

Not to mention we all think we are rational.:monkeydance: Well not me but I don't count being an alien.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440608 - 11/12/09 01:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Irrationality will not be weeded out completely. The impulse to be rational for
instance, is irrational. All of your rational enterprises melt into the sea of
irrationality, which is the primordial soup of the human lifeworld.
-Lakefingers Thu Nov 12 2009



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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11440625 - 11/12/09 01:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
... Well not me but I don't count being an alien.:satansmoking:




I suspected you were an illegal. You're probably a commie too, from that there Iceland and all.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11440635 - 11/12/09 01:05 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Don't forget being an alcoholic.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11440749 - 11/12/09 01:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
or to not think, and act irrationally as a result.

Come on man.  Man always thinks and then acts. He either acts skillfully or unskillfully.






Depends on whether you think thinking includes logic and reason or not.

Just going along with whatever thoughts and emotions are manifesting at the time does not constitute 'thinking' in my definition.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11440830 - 11/12/09 01:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Well you get to define words any way that pleases you. This must make your teaching interesting.:grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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