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InvisibleLakefingers

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Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death
    #11355889 - 10/31/09 06:45 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Heidegger's been popping up around here lately. Death is getting all the more room in the forum - no doubt because of the combination of ego-death inducing drugs, philosophical thinking, and several of our members passing middle age. Here's a small intro to some of Heidegger's essential thoughts on death.

Angst is a dread about being here, alive, in this world. Fear of death is directed towards an objective threat. Angst is general and without the intentional object of fear.

Revealing and everdayness. Revealing is the function of truth, which uncovers what is hidden in everdayness - the concealing function of normal being/thought/action.

Being-toward-death is a way of being in relation to death. This relates to our way of experiencing time as a time spiral, a loop, a recurrence that relate to self-projections beyond the present. As humans we relate to possibility and probability. Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".

We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure by objectifying death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it. If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthentically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle.

Ecstatically morbid Halloween to you.


Edited by Lakefingers (10/31/09 07:05 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11355904 - 10/31/09 06:59 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Excellent. I especially grok these parts.

How one deals with the death angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals

And

We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure or that make us objectify death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it. If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthetnically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle.

A holy jolly Day of the Dead to  you my friend.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11355923 - 10/31/09 07:14 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps it isn't easy for Jason, or any of us, to see how the Ouroboros represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself and re-examining it's beginning and end, from the various perspective points of perception.

Jason is a re-incarnation of Cain and and conceives his own reality complete with supportive roles that do little in the way of working thru a false premise thus reinforcing Cain's own self image and self-approval ad infinitum.


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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11355928 - 10/31/09 07:17 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Heidegger's been popping up around here lately. Death is getting all the more room in the forum - no doubt because of the combination of ego-death inducing drugs, philosophical thinking, and several of our members passing middle age. Here's a small intro to some of Heidegger's essential thoughts on death.

Angst is a dread about being here, alive, in this world. Fear of death is directed towards an objective threat. Angst is general and without the intentional object of fear.

Revealing and everdayness. Revealing is the function of truth, which uncovers what is hidden in everdayness - the concealing function of normal being/thought/action.

Being-toward-death is a way of being in relation to death. This relates to our way of experiencing time as a time spiral, a loop, a recurrence that relate to self-projections beyond the present. As humans we relate to possibility and probability. Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".

We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure by objectifying death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it. If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthentically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle.

Ecstatically morbid Halloween to you.




I spend a lot of time thinking about what its going to feel like when I die

I know I will be afraid when the time comes but I also see this as a progression to the next step and not the true end of me

I used to believe death was the end and some would have you believe that this is actually a more realistic and rational way of viewing things

I personally think its an excuse so we don't have to own up to mistakes and personal weakness, or attempt to correct our flaws believing that we will not be held accountable for our actions

its a license to be a complete fuck without having to answer for it

the prospect of hell is far more terrifying then death

I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to contemplate the fullness of hell as well(though this is impossible without being there)

I'll end with this song that seems to fit this topic fairly well and I believe what is being said in it

fear and pain have a way of stripping away our masks and showing us the truth of who we are:



Edited by Life Upon Death (10/31/09 07:26 AM)


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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11355936 - 10/31/09 07:24 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

if hell is a reality then the denial of its existence could be referred too as "hell anxiety"

the belief of a lie in order to pacify that anxiety


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11355948 - 10/31/09 07:28 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

MAJOR DEATH ANXIETY ALERT!:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11356100 - 10/31/09 08:56 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I do not understand the notion of 'death anxiety', it seems highly illogical. Why would anyone be anxious about something they are never going to experience? :shrug:

Sure, you can be irrationally anxious about the pain of dying that you may or may not experience in any number of ways. But when you are 'dead' what exactly is the basis for your continued experience? You are DEAD. All available evidence suggests that you no longer have any conciousness after your brain dies.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11356175 - 10/31/09 09:33 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

rational ego?

You really don't get it?

:rofl2:

You are a perfect example of how this works.

Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".

We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure by objectifying death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it. If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthentically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/31/09 09:34 AM)


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11356232 - 10/31/09 09:54 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not anxious about death simply becuase I will never experience it. I will experience dying but I have no idea when it will happen or how, therefore it does not and should not have an impact on how I live my life.

Life is the standard of value by which I judge my life and all values to be obtained in it. Death is outside of that context and is an unknowable with no value to be found in it, therefore it is irrational to have an anxiety about something that cannot be known and by which no values are possible.

People who are terrified and have fear about death are usually the same people who believe in after-lives, punishment, redemption and all other scenarios pertaining to ones 'continued' existence after the fact of ones demise.

My question to you is this. What 'meaning' can death have? Why is it a necessary condition for an individual to fear and have anxiety about an unknowable variable? Of course, my conviction is that it is not necessary at all.


Edited by RationalEgo (10/31/09 10:05 AM)


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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11356263 - 10/31/09 10:05 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

when you really think about it death is the most humiliating thing we will ever have to endure

until coming face to face with our own mortality its impossible to imagine what it will feel like to slip away into the unknown

I can't imagine there is a point in our life where we feel more helpless and childlike


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11356412 - 10/31/09 10:57 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Death anxiety is not about what you will feel after death. :tongue:

Death anxiety is something that motivates us due to the unacceptability conscious and unconscious of becoming non existent. Much of this happens on an unconscious level. I have posted on this until I'm blue in the face. Everything from favoring male children to carry on ones line to amassing wealth to religion to building monuments to oneself through ones actions and on and on. Since you like to read, check out Earnest Beckers book, "Denial of Death" and the Hero Complex.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11357071 - 10/31/09 01:44 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)


I dont think what your saying is morbid at all, its ecstatic :wink:
Contemplating death is the most liberating 'exercise' possible

Quote:

"We talk about death normally and conceal it in fact, in matter-of-fact, in established discourses or opinions that make us feel secure by objectifying death. Yet to bring death into the open is to reveal it, to make it truth by revealing it.
If we simply discuss it in the concepts that are prepared for us, we discuss it inauthentically, without the angst and truth of what it means, and thus see it as a fact among many other facts belonging to a stale and objectified world we feel prepared to handle."




That is key. I like how you touch on objectifying the world (through concepts) makes it 'stale'... very true
Only talking & conceptualizing about death is still distancing it from the fact that YOU yourself will die

Quote:

"one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet"




:peace:


--------------------
________________________________


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11357189 - 10/31/09 02:12 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Being-toward-death is a way of being in relation to death. This relates to our way of experiencing time as a time spiral, a loop, a recurrence that relate to self-projections beyond the present. As humans we relate to possibility and probability. Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".



I think this sort of uncertainty extends beyond just the subject of death.  The terms "open-minded" and "close-minded" get abused a lot by people who define them in terms of who agrees with them or not, but I think what it fundamentally comes down to is authenticity or inauthenticity concerning uncertainty.  Close-minded people are those who are inauthentic by virtue of fleeing from ambiguity, whereas an open-minded person is one who can be present in the ambiguity of life(and death), and not flee toward a sense of certainty.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Silversoul]
    #11357227 - 10/31/09 02:18 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: Icelander]
    #11357718 - 10/31/09 03:48 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Death anxiety is not about what you will feel after death.




What you feel after death is reincarnation anxiety. I hope they have some up-to-date magazines in the waiting room.


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (10/31/09 04:08 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being Towards Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11357736 - 10/31/09 03:52 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup: right.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSventington
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Silversoul]
    #11357752 - 10/31/09 03:54 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Being-toward-death is a way of being in relation to death. This relates to our way of experiencing time as a time spiral, a loop, a recurrence that relate to self-projections beyond the present. As humans we relate to possibility and probability. Of all creatures, humans have the most intimate understanding of the possibility and inevitability of their own death. How one deals with the death and the angst this causes defines each as acting authentically (to accept death as part of ourselves) or inauthentically (to disavow death by rationalization or ignorance). It is how we act and think on this that defines us as individuals ("no one can go for you...."). Since one doesn't know when death'll come, one lives in uncertainty and sees death as a "not yet".



I think this sort of uncertainty extends beyond just the subject of death.  The terms "open-minded" and "close-minded" get abused a lot by people who define them in terms of who agrees with them or not, but I think what it fundamentally comes down to is authenticity or inauthenticity concerning uncertainty.  Close-minded people are those who are inauthentic by virtue of fleeing from ambiguity, whereas an open-minded person is one who can be present in the ambiguity of life(and death), and not flee toward a sense of certainty.





Do you by chance watch a youtuber named professoranton? This sounds a lot like what's covered in a few of his videos (especially the ambiguity part).


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Sventington]
    #11357785 - 10/31/09 04:02 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sventington said:
Do you by chance watch a youtuber named professoranton? This sounds a lot like what's covered in a few of his videos (especially the ambiguity part).



Indeed.  I just recently started exploring some of the more deep, philosophical channels of YouTube, buried under mounds of sneezing pandas and keyboard-playing cats.


--------------------


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11358104 - 10/31/09 04:56 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

What is essential?

It may be a cliche, but reading Heidegger is like peeling an onion. The first concern is what's inside...and inside and inside. You may wonder if it's a "present", but we are at least concerned with what is fundamentally "presence".

The drama of this presence is expressed or articulated in the arts. In Hamlet, for instance, there is a "play within a play", which is used to derive a certain reaction, and so the truth, from the illegitimate King Claudius.

Of our presence/(present?), we do not know how many layers there are. We are only able to think, dramatically - of inside and out - a play within a play. This motif, or theme of our investigation, is further modulated as presence. That is, we are still talking fundamentally about within and without, but contending with multiple layers.

The first problem that arises is we cannot actually articulate the layers "as such". As you say it, "a play within a play within a play" we can only conceive within and without.

To say "a play within a play within a play", you cannot clearly elaborate what is occurring in each layer, in the singular breath that you lay them out. To elaborate mid- sentence upon the specific character of a layer, is much too ambiguous, without previously establishing the basic situation. As you say, or seemingly "add" another layer of being, you essentially push each preceding layer back.

For instance, Shakespeare's play is a (B) play within a (A) play. But if there was another layer it would first be (C play) within (B play) within (A play). In a series, the withins only derive their identity from the completion of the expression.

Basically, the within that we are after is articulated backwards. We cannot talk "essentially" about the first play, until we establish the inner plays, and even more, we can't describe the inner plays, without the previous context of the outer plays. Thus, to explicitly articulate our presence here, we must vaguely attempt to lay out the structure of the play as a whole. That is a blunt statement, but I am basically impressing the sloping A Priori foundation for the investigation of our presence.

This is at least essential to how I've been reading Heidegger, "fragmentary and incipient" though I'm sure he would call it. Nonetheless it is the ground upon which the themes Lakefingers mentioned arise, as I have understood them. In art, the pathos is implied as "drama" for which I think Hamlet is also an excellent choice of Heideggerian character.

Also, for those of you who enjoy film, don't miss out on Charlie Kaufman; I'm curious if anyone agrees with me that he writes "Heideggerian" cinema. He gets right down to the explicit modulation of layers, as well as pathos. Check out "Synechdoche NY" (With Philip Seymour Hoffman), or less so, "Adaptation" (which is one of my favorites.)

Thanks for the premise Lakefingers, and speaking of movies, nice choice on the avatar.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (10/31/09 10:25 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Halloween - Authenticity, Angst and Being-Towards-Death [Re: daytripper23]
    #11358387 - 10/31/09 05:46 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Just watched "Synechdoche"  twice.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/31/09 05:54 PM)


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