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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??...
    #11353274 - 10/30/09 07:00 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

a disturbing consensus seems to be emerging that no immaterial "soul" animates the human consciousness.. ie that consciousness is entirely a phyiscal and biological process...this is understandable..since all they can see is within the brain...but it has some very undersireable ramifications..including the thread title...

however..i claim that this line of reasoning is shortsighted...in 1491..the vast weight of observable scientific evidence pointed to the earth being flat...some ppl did try to argue otherwise..and they were dismissed in much the same way the brain-is-mind crowd dismisses their opponents today...

so whose side..if any..are you on?...


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OfflineSmitington
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353304 - 10/30/09 07:06 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Ofcourse consciousness is entirely a physical and biological process... this doesn't detour from the beauty and mystery of life and existence what-so-ever however.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353362 - 10/30/09 07:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Certainly not on your side.

I don't see why it has to be "disturbing" that we are fully material forms of energy.

Disturbing to you is what you mean. (death anxiety)

You think it's better to have religion with all it's "blessings" (like the Inquisition)

We don't need a soul to have good and beneficial lives. To care, to love, to be content.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353379 - 10/30/09 07:24 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
a disturbing consensus seems to be emerging that no immaterial "soul" animates the human consciousness.. ie that consciousness is entirely a phyiscal and biological process...this is understandable..since all they can see is within the brain...but it has some very undersireable ramifications..including the thread title...



Cartesian substance dualism is essentially dead for all people who have at all followed the development of neuroscience over the past century.  The idea that there's some immaterial substance that interacts with the brain just requires too many ad hoc explanations.  I don't think the mind is necessarily reducible to the brain, but the brain clearly plays a major role.  However, I also think the brain is somewhat overrated in the sense that we look for all explanations of consciousness within the brain, rather than taking a more ecological view of consciousness.  That is, I don't think we can fully understand consciousness simply as something that takes place inside the skull.  We have to understand consciousness as an interaction between subject and object.  I also think that although consciousness is physical, it is not material, because matter itself is a rather vague and incoherent concept.

Quote:

however..i claim that this line of reasoning is shortsighted...in 1491..the vast weight of observable scientific evidence pointed to the earth being flat...some ppl did try to argue otherwise..and they were dismissed in much the same way the brain-is-mind crowd dismisses their opponents today...



The ancient Greeks knew the world was spherical long before Columbus was born.

Quote:

so whose side..if any..are you on?...



I side with the enactivists.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11353585 - 10/30/09 07:57 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cartesian substance dualism is essentially dead for all people who have at all followed the development of neuroscience over the past century.




the whole problem with neuroscience is that it remains limited to what we can see in the brain...if all i can see is fenceposts around my lawn..then any measurement of those fenceposts will show that the earth is flat.. the advancement of science in this case is only making the yardstick more precise...

Quote:

The ancient Greeks knew the world was spherical long before Columbus was born.




they proved mathematically that the earth was round..but not too many ppl believed them until columbus provided the concrete evidence...similarly there are mathematical models that could reconcile the mind vs the brain..but ppl will remain skeptical until theres something tangible...


--------------------


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353600 - 10/30/09 08:00 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

however..i claim that this line of reasoning is shortsighted...in 1491..the vast weight of observable scientific evidence pointed to the earth being flat...some ppl did try to argue otherwise..




Thats not only false, but it is not relevant.  Thats the same kind of thinking as "They all laughed at Galileo and he was right, they are all laughing at me so I must be right."  What happened to Columbus, or Galileo is not evidence for anything at all with respect to your topic.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Icelander]
    #11353614 - 10/30/09 08:02 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Certainly not on your side.

I don't see why it has to be "disturbing" that we are fully material forms of energy.

Disturbing to you is what you mean. (death anxiety)





death anxiety is an indispensable tool of tyrannical governance...ppl that dont believe that there is an afterlife nor any reality beyond this body..will be hesitant to stage an armed revolution against such a regime...if we are going to accept that level of dehumanization then there cannot be any remaining doubt.. and as things stand..there is more than enough doubt...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlineskippyluvs
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353628 - 10/30/09 08:04 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:


the whole problem with neuroscience is that it remains limited to what we can see in the brain...if all i can see is fenceposts around my lawn..then any measurement of those fenceposts will show that the earth is flat.. the advancement of science in this case is only making the yardstick more precise...





^ this


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: DieCommie]
    #11353642 - 10/30/09 08:07 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

however..i claim that this line of reasoning is shortsighted...in 1491..the vast weight of observable scientific evidence pointed to the earth being flat...some ppl did try to argue otherwise..




Thats not only false, but it is not relevant.  Thats the same kind of thinking as "They all laughed at Galileo and he was right, they are all laughing at me so I must be right."  What happened to Columbus, or Galileo is not evidence for anything at all with respect to your topic.




:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSmitington
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353655 - 10/30/09 08:09 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Certainly not on your side.

I don't see why it has to be "disturbing" that we are fully material forms of energy.

Disturbing to you is what you mean. (death anxiety)





death anxiety is an indispensable tool of tyrannical governance...ppl that dont believe that there is an afterlife nor any reality beyond this body..will be hesitant to stage an armed revolution against such a regime...if we are going to accept that level of dehumanization then there cannot be any remaining doubt.. and as things stand..there is more than enough doubt...




Explain why you are disturbed by the notion that consciousness is entirely a physical and biological process.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Smitington]
    #11353665 - 10/30/09 08:10 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

the answer is in the blockquote...furthermore..neuroscience is a very new field..having emerged in the neoconservative era of the last 30 years...and that raises questions as to who is funding the neuroscientists and what is their agenda...


Edited by Annapurna1 (10/30/09 08:20 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: DieCommie]
    #11353675 - 10/30/09 08:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

however..i claim that this line of reasoning is shortsighted...in 1491..the vast weight of observable scientific evidence pointed to the earth being flat...some ppl did try to argue otherwise..




Thats not only false, but it is not relevant.  Thats the same kind of thinking as "They all laughed at Galileo and he was right, they are all laughing at me so I must be right."  What happened to Columbus, or Galileo is not evidence for anything at all with respect to your topic.




im not saying that im necessarily right wrt this topic simply because galieo and columbus' detractors wrong...im just saying that the neuroscientists' argument is that something isnt there unless they can see it.. which has been wrong in the past...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353680 - 10/30/09 08:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

...ppl that dont believe that there is an afterlife nor any reality beyond this body..will be hesitant to stage an armed revolution against such a regime...

What? What about the majority that is religious? Where's the fucking revolution???

But in a sense you are correct. Those in the know (imo) realize that emotionally humanity is the same no matter what side is in control. That's why a history book full of revolutions hasn't changed the fact that like another world war (to end all wars) , another "revolution" is now needed. Human's are emotionally unhealthy and unskillful and that includes you and your side too. Those that realize this know that they will be the straw that makes or brakes their experience at least to some extent. They become solo warriors and need to be pretty sneaky to survive for a lifetime.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353684 - 10/30/09 08:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
ppl that dont believe that there is an afterlife nor any reality beyond this body..will be hesitant to stage an armed revolution against such a regime...



Most of the major revolutions of the last century were inspired by Marxism, which is an expressly anti-religious ideology.  Lenin was a proud and unabashed materialist, yet that didn't stop him from leading a revolution.


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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353702 - 10/30/09 08:17 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I mean why do you think this notion is dehumanizing?  Why does it mean there is no after life?  I don't see any connection between consciousness being a result of our physical mind and your fear.  Also, people that do not believe in an after life aren't dehumanized and don't have a I don't give a shit about life attitude.  I just see you throwing all this fancy logic out that doesn't really mean anything in an attempt to detour us from addressing your personal issues.


--------------------


Edited by Smitington (10/30/09 08:22 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11353755 - 10/30/09 08:28 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
ppl that dont believe that there is an afterlife nor any reality beyond this body..will be hesitant to stage an armed revolution against such a regime...



Most of the major revolutions of the last century were inspired by Marxism, which is an expressly anti-religious ideology.  Lenin was a proud and unabashed materialist, yet that didn't stop him from leading a revolution.




the generic existence of consciousness beyond the brain has nothing to do with orthodox..organized religion..which marx and lenin rightfully opposed...im not religious either..but i definitely dont accept this notion that were just objects or things with specific properties...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353766 - 10/30/09 08:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

but i definitely dont accept this notion that were just objects or things with specific properties

Why don't you accept it? When the available evidence we have points to that being a likely truth.

And let me ask you this. Do you feel the same about a mouse or an ant, or a virus?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Smitington]
    #11353820 - 10/30/09 08:45 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smitington said:
I guess I mean why do you think this notion is dehumanizing?  Why does it mean there is no after life?  I don't see any connection between consciousness being a result of our physical mind and your fear.  Also, people that do not believe in an after life aren't dehumanized and don't have a I don't give a shit about life attitude.  I just see you throwing all this fancy logic out that doesn't really mean anything in an attempt to detour us from addressing your personal issues.




first of all..theres' no such thing as a "physical mind".. thats something that ppl on both sides of the debate would agree on...

but intuitively..one would expect that someone who does not believe in any reality beyond this body would be more hesitant to act against a grave injustice because it might get them killed...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11353882 - 10/30/09 08:56 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

What I object to here is the false dichotomy you seem to propose between physical reductionism and Cartestian dualism.  Gautama Buddha refuted such dualism long ago, yet he and Buddhists today certainly maintain a sense of spirituality.  My biggest problem with Cartesian dualism is not so much that it puts consciousness on a pedestal so much as it puts down the physical world.  Why can't consciousness be an aspect of the physical world itself?  Perhaps consciousness is more of a spectrum than an on-off switch.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can science reduce people to electrochemical machines??... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11353911 - 10/30/09 09:01 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

My biggest problem with Cartesian dualism is not so much that it puts consciousness on a pedestal so much as it puts down the physical world.  Why can't consciousness be an aspect of the physical world itself?  Perhaps consciousness is more of a spectrum than an on-off switch.

Man do I agree with you here. :thumbup:

The physical world is an awesome mystery. BUT it is also filled with violence pain and decay, disease and death. This, IMO, is what people can't stand. If that is also true then where are they? Gone, dead and unremembered. Our psyches are not equipped for this. So we cling to any outrageous straw we can find and tell ourselves that we are looking for truth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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