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InvisiblePoid
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I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other
    #11347919 - 10/29/09 10:06 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

If it's not doing this job effectively, then it needs to be reformed in a timely manner. :sadyes:
Do you agree with me?
You may choose only one
Yes, I agree with you, Poid, and I'll tell you why.
No Poid, I disagree with you, and I'll tell you why.


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--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
    #11349149 - 10/30/09 12:40 AM (8 years, 27 days ago)

The Government is an institution. Thus, it has its own purpose and endeavors. The fundamental role of the government isn't to protect us from each other.

The purpose of the Government is to protect the Government, advance the Government, and prolong the Government. We, as Citizens, are vehicles and tools used to do so. Government wasn't conceived for the betterment of society; that's an illusion. Kings weren't kings because they felt they had the duty to serve their people. Kings were kings to control the people for the betterment of the aristocracy.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: meatcakeman]
    #11350199 - 10/30/09 07:30 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

the original intent of the US government was to defend the inalienable rights of its citizens: you can do whatever the fuck you want as long as you don't interfere with someone else's right to do whatever the fuck they want.  this purpose has been lost, and now we are left with:

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
The purpose of the Government is to protect the Government, advance the Government, and prolong the Government.




--------------------
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to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Yrat]
    #11350259 - 10/30/09 08:14 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
the original intent of the US government was to defend the inalienable rights of its citizens: you can do whatever the fuck you want as long as you don't interfere with someone else's right to do whatever the fuck they want.  this purpose has been lost, and now we are left with:

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
The purpose of the Government is to protect the Government, advance the Government, and prolong the Government.








Yes, all thanks to our aggressively free form of capitalism. Free enterprise in its purest form is impossible because it is unsustainable. But we're slowly getting there..


--------------------
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: meatcakeman]
    #11350500 - 10/30/09 10:21 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
the original intent of the US government was to defend the inalienable rights of its citizens: you can do whatever the fuck you want as long as you don't interfere with someone else's right to do whatever the fuck they want.  this purpose has been lost, and now we are left with:

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
The purpose of the Government is to protect the Government, advance the Government, and prolong the Government.








Yes, all thanks to our aggressively free form of capitalism. Free enterprise in its purest form is impossible because it is unsustainable. But we're slowly getting there..




This does not follow.  Please reason it out for us rather than just post the first thing that comes to your mind.

Thank you.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Redstorm]
    #11350526 - 10/30/09 10:28 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

No it doesn't follow because we don't have a free market and therefore real capitalism in America.

Asshats like Michael Moore cause lots of trouble when they blame economic woes on capitalism that does not exist.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11351185 - 10/30/09 01:21 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

I actually agree with the lad.  The government's role is to protect us from each other ("each other" occasionally being murderers rapists thieves etc.).  It is not the government's role to protect us from ourselves.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11351218 - 10/30/09 01:29 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

The enforcement of contracts and protection of private property is important.

That is why it is wrong for government to tax property.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11351344 - 10/30/09 01:54 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
No it doesn't follow because we don't have a free market and therefore real capitalism in America.

Asshats like Michael Moore cause lots of trouble when they blame economic woes on capitalism that does not exist.



Mr.Al, do you know why regulations exist?  To correct problems that have occurred as a result of free market practices.

For example, have you ever heard of the Glass–Steagall Act and do you know why it was passed?  (to help prevent another great depression)  And do you know it was repealed?  (because there are idiots out there who believe regulation is bad, no matter how good it is)  And do you know why it's going to be implemented again?


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11351438 - 10/30/09 02:08 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

We do not have a free market.  Are you suggesting that we regulate a non-existent free market?

Mal-investment can not be prevented by regulation.


The Glass–Steagall Act is an attempt to address the symptoms of a problem, not the underlying causes.

It is foolish to scream greed whenever there are systematic problems.  The "regulators" at the federal reserve have been responsible for artificially low interest rates that create systemic malinvestment.

Speculating becomes more profitable than real production with central economic planners in charge.

Again, looking at the mortgage meltdown that precipitated market crashes (because mortgage money that was repackaged as "AAA" rated was used for market investment domestically and internationally) we find that easy money came from low interest rates and legislation like the C.R.A.

Without the housing boom there would have not been huge mal-investment in Wallstreet. 

Can you see how mal-investment in one sector of the economy can create bubbles elsewhere?!?

Regulate and you will simply see the bubble form elsewhere.

Regulation addresses symptoms and cures nothing.


Instead of trying to "fix one thing" think of it as a system.


Edited by Mr.Al (10/30/09 02:22 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11351882 - 10/30/09 03:13 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
The Government is an institution.


Does the populace have control over this institution, or does this institution have control over the populace? :undecided:



Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Thus, it has its own purpose and endeavors.


If the populace has control over this institution, then the populace chooses its own purposes and endeavors; if this institution has control over the populace, then it is its prerogative to choose its own purposes and endeavors.



Quote:

meatcakeman said:
The fundamental role of the government isn't to protect us from each other.


IMO, the validity of this statement depends on whether or not the populace has control over this institution, or if this institution has control over the populace; your statement can't be verified until those questions are answered.



Quote:

meatcakeman said:
The purpose of the Government is to protect the Government, advance the Government, and prolong the Government. We, as Citizens, are vehicles and tools used to do so.


IMO, I think your former statement may possibly depend on whether or not the populace has control over this institution, or if this institution have control over the populace; as for your latter statement, aren't we, the citizens, the same thing as the government? :confused:

How do you know that the government isn't our (the citizens') tool, as opposed to us being tools for it? :strokebeard:



Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Government wasn't conceived for the betterment of society; that's an illusion.


Care to back this statement up with a logically sound argument?



Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Kings weren't kings because they felt they had the duty to serve their people. Kings were kings to control the people for the betterment of the aristocracy.


America is not an empire, it's a federal democracy (I think...)



Quote:

Yrat said:
the original intent of the US government was to defend the inalienable rights of its citizens: you can do whatever the fuck you want as long as you don't interfere with someone else's right to do whatever the fuck they want.  this purpose has been lost, and now we are left with:

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
The purpose of the Government is to protect the Government, advance the Government, and prolong the Government.





Well, if this is true, then it needs to change. Now. :mad:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It is not the government's role to protect us from ourselves.


Fuck no it's not. :nonono:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (11/08/12 09:50 AM)


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OfflineDeltron3030
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
    #11352128 - 10/30/09 03:53 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

we give up a little bit of liberty in order for the government to keep us safe. the problem is the government keeps on taking more and more of our liberty under the guise of keeping us safe.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Deltron3030]
    #11352160 - 10/30/09 04:00 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Deltron3030 said:
we give up a little bit of liberty in order for the government to keep us safe.


Is it always necessary to give up some of our liberties in order to have the government keep us safe from each other?



Quote:

Deltron3030 said:
the problem is the government keeps on taking more and more of our liberty under the guise of keeping us safe.


If this is true, then that is a problem. :mad2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (10/30/09 04:15 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
    #11352226 - 10/30/09 04:11 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Is it always necessary to give up some of our liberties in ourder to have the government keep us safe from each other?




Yes.  In a state of nature where government does not exist, total freedom exists.  This is not a good thing, in my opinion, because total freedom means I can walk into my neighbor's house, rape his wife, eat all their food, and then sell his children into slavery.

That is, provided that I am stronger than him.


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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Redstorm]
    #11352273 - 10/30/09 04:18 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Is it always necessary to give up some of our liberties in ourder to have the government keep us safe from each other?


Yes.  In a state of nature where government does not exist, total freedom exists.  This is not a good thing, in my opinion, because total freedom means I Formula: 0 walk into my neighbor's house, rape his wife, eat all their food, and then sell his children into slavery.



You can do all that, but that doesn't mean you necessarily will. So, again, is it always necessary to give up some of our liberties in order to have the government keep us safe from each other?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Poid]
    #11352365 - 10/30/09 04:35 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Yes, of course it is.  Just because I will or will not do something is irrelevant.  You don't have to exercise your rights in order to have them.

Having the ability to do absolutely anything one wants is true, absolute freedom (or liberty).  This state is incompatible with the existence of government because of the existence of laws.  To protect us from each other, rules for the use of force by against citizens is made. By carrying out force, certain acts committed by citizens are considered unacceptable, so the total freedom present during the state of nature is no longer present.

(That was pretty summarized. If you're interested in a more detailed account, check out John Locke's Second Treatise on Civil Government).

Debate can be had about whether TOO MUCH liberty has to be given up to allow the government to protect us from each other, though.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Redstorm]
    #11352762 - 10/30/09 05:45 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Is it always necessary to give up some of our liberties in ourder to have the government keep us safe from each other?




Yes.  In a state of nature where government does not exist, total freedom exists.  This is not a good thing, in my opinion, because total freedom means I can walk into my neighbor's house, rape his wife, eat all their food, and then sell his children into slavery.

That is, provided that I am stronger than him.




you could do those things right now if you truly wanted to, and we certainly do not live in a government-free society.  how is your argument valid?

i think that you mean in a government-free society, there would be no repercussions for such actions.  there would be no authority figure to dole out appropriate justice.  this is very different from "protecting us from one another."


--------------------
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to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Redstorm]
    #11352809 - 10/30/09 05:54 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Yes, of course it is.


So you believe that it is always necessary to give up some of our liberties in order to have the government keep us safe from each other?



Quote:

Redstorm said:
You don't have to exercise your rights in order to have them.


"You have the right to remain silent" :cop:



Quote:

Redstorm said:
Having the ability to do absolutely anything one wants is true, absolute freedom (or liberty).  This state is incompatible with the existence of government because of the existence of laws.  To protect us from each other, rules for the use of force by against citizens is made. By carrying out force, certain acts committed by citizens are considered unacceptable, so the total freedom present during the state of nature is no longer present.


You voted "No", didn't you?



Quote:

Redstorm said:
(That was pretty summarized. If you're interested in a more detailed account, check out John Locke's Second Treatise on Civil Government).


I may check it out sometime in the future, thanks for the reference :mushroom2:



Quote:

Redstorm said:
Debate can be had about whether TOO MUCH liberty has to be given up to allow the government to protect us from each other, though.


IMO, the extent of the loss of liberty should reflect how much necessary action there is needed in order to make us safe from each other.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Yrat]
    #11352913 - 10/30/09 06:09 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:


i think that you mean in a government-free society, there would be no repercussions for such actions.




Yes, this.


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Re: I Believe the Government's Fundamental Role is to Protect Ourselves From Each Other [Re: Redstorm]
    #11352921 - 10/30/09 06:11 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

You voted "No", didn't you?




I didn't vote, but if I did I would have voted yes.


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