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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
#11338849 - 10/28/09 02:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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deranger said: when does the only come into play?
Unless you are blind, deaf, dumb and paralysed, never.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
#11338855 - 10/28/09 02:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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OrgoneConclusion said: I had shellfish for lunch! Yum.
How selfish of you to eat the dead corpse of a sea creature for your own pleasure.
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newshOne said: If we were 100% completely selfLESS then we would never care for ourselves.
Big 'if'!
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andrewss said:
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Poid said:
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andrewss said: If we are 100% selfish then why have people died for other people? Why have soldiers, on a whim, jumped on grenades?
So you believe in altruism?
One can believe in altruism? Altrusim exists, is it THE ideal... dunno bout that....
There's no such thing as an altruistic act.
/of.
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deranger said: i am 99.9999328% selfish.
Explain yourself!
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Chronic777 said: Yes
Finally we can agree on something!
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deranger said: if we were all 100% selfish, nobody would care for another you can't tell me nobody cares for anybody. sure it's been debated that ultimately it does serve our best interest whether we care for someone or not. but i don't think that has to do with the actual definition of selfishness.
I feel love for my family sometimes because doing so makes me feel good.
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MycoUnderground said: Is there such things as a truly altruistic action?
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RationalEgo said: Most people however are not.
Can you elaborate?
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RationalEgo said:
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deranger said: if we were all 100% selfish, nobody would care for another you can't tell me nobody cares for anybody. sure it's been debated that ultimately it does serve our best interest whether we care for someone or not. but i don't think that has to do with the actual definition of selfishness.
I call bullshit on this. If you were 100% selfish you would protect your values and never sacrifice them becuase they are what bring you happiness in life. This obviously means that you care deeply for those you value. Selfishness does not imply sacrifice of any kind, in fact it implies the opposite. Now an altruist can never care for another becuase he sacrifices his values at every opportunity. It is the standard of his morality to do so. If he cares it means there is a trace of selfishness. If you hold altruism as the standard then you admit that happiness is not your central purpose as you are a total slave to the whims of others.
The question that no altruists asks is this. If the good in life is to sacrifice ones values to others, then what of the morality of those who receive those values? Are they not evil for receiving those values? Should they not in turn sacrifice those values until everyone has nothing, as that is the standard of the good?
If you truly believe in altruism ask yourself these honest questions and envision what kind of world following that creed would create.
Damn, that was deep!
Oh wait, you opted out...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
#11338935 - 10/28/09 02:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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RationalEgo said:
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deranger said: when does the only come into play?
Unless you are blind, deaf, dumb and paralysed, never.
bull
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
#11338961 - 10/28/09 02:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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deranger said:
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RationalEgo said:
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deranger said: when does the only come into play?
Unless you are blind, deaf, dumb and paralysed, never.
bull
Granted, possibly it is. But it depends on your definition. If to only think of yourself you imply that yourself is an isolated thing divorced from the world of values, then my statement holds true. If however you are implying that to 'only' think of yourself means to only think of ones values, then it is absolutely possible to think of others and every other values in the world around you.
Edited by RationalEgo (10/28/09 03:33 PM)
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
#11339001 - 10/28/09 02:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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RationalEgo said: Now an altruist can never care for another becuase he sacrifices his values at every opportunity. It is the standard of his morality to do so. If he cares it means there is a trace of selfishness.
a man is threatening to jump off a bridge and there is a crowd. someone comes and talks him out of it and succeeds.
a. he was being selfish b. he was being altruistic
which is more accurate?
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
#11339032 - 10/28/09 02:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:
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RationalEgo said: Now an altruist can never care for another becuase he sacrifices his values at every opportunity. It is the standard of his morality to do so. If he cares it means there is a trace of selfishness.
a man is threatening to jump off a bridge and there is a crowd. someone comes and talks him out of it and succeeds.
a. he was being selfish b. he was being altruistic
which is more accurate?
That's a life-boat scenario divorced from the entire context of life and the pursuit of values.
I would say the decision to save the man would be entirley a 'sense of life' issue in this circumstance meaning that it depends on how much the man values human life in general.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 1 day
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
#11339153 - 10/28/09 02:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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The tail end of this thread is exactly why people and their comments on things can often suck balls and be a bunch of bullshit... this is gettin into one big semantical debate. Sometimes people just on a whim do something that they would/people in general would consider objectivly good - and this often times works out in life - and I see no need for 100% consistency, duh!
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: andrewss]
#11339217 - 10/28/09 02:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is that your final answer?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 1 day
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
#11339262 - 10/28/09 02:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'll stick with it
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
#11339324 - 10/28/09 03:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you were you couldn't live with yourself.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: andrewss]
#11339328 - 10/28/09 03:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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hey... our debate wasn't as bad as some in the past
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: andrewss]
#11339479 - 10/28/09 03:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ahimsa said: If you were you couldn't live with yourself.
Why do you say this?
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andrewss said: I'll stick with it
Then you lose the grand prize.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
#11339573 - 10/28/09 03:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Poid said:
Quote:
Ahimsa said: If you were you couldn't live with yourself.
Why do you say this?
Being 100% selfish turns you into a heartless person. Imo altruism is the best selfishness.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Ahimsa]
#11339589 - 10/28/09 03:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ahimsa said:
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Poid said:
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Ahimsa said: If you were you couldn't live with yourself.
Why do you say this?
Being 100% selfish turns you into a heartless person. Imo altruism is the best selfishness.
Thats total nonsense.
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
#11339601 - 10/28/09 03:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Selfish only care about themselves. So they don't care about me. Well let them have fun with themselves. I'll have fun with my friends.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Ahimsa]
#11339633 - 10/28/09 03:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ahimsa said: Selfish only care about themselves.
Also nonsense.
How many more cliché bromides do you want to spout?
I thought this was the Philosophy forum where people were meant to think?
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
#11339655 - 10/28/09 03:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't really mix well with people who only care for their own concerns and benefits. They are always selfish and i try to avoid them because they feel heartless.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Ahimsa]
#11339684 - 10/28/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: I don't really mix well with people who only care for their own concerns and benefits. They are always selfish and i try to avoid them because they feel heartless.
So you are saying that you would rather mix with people who do not have any concern about you and do not derive any benefit from your company, than people who value you and therefore consider you one of their 'concerns' and benefit from your company?
I think you have a false dichotomy going on between your ideas of selflessness and selfishness.
See my above posts for further clarification if you selfishly value my posts.
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
#11339827 - 10/28/09 04:13 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I may be wrong, but selfish people seek my company for their benefit, at my expense. At least, that's how i see 100% selfish people.
Being among people and sharing each others presence for a collective benefit is totally different ballgame than those who only seek to exploit you. And that is what i mean by selfisness.
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RationalEgo
Principium Individuationis
Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Ahimsa]
#11339901 - 10/28/09 04:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: I may be wrong, but selfish people seek my company for their benefit, at my expense. At least, that's how i see 100% selfish people.
Being among people and sharing each others presence for a collective benefit is totally different ballgame than those who only seek to exploit you. And that is what i mean by selfisness.
That is where you get your improper notion, selfishness should not imply that one expects others to sacrifice values to you disregarding moral conduct. It is one of those bromidal false dichotomies that forces you to accept the alternate as the good, in this case 'selflessness'.
One values others becuase they are adding to your own enjoyment and happiness in life in a rational way. One can never gain happiness from exploiting others as those actions can never result in the necessary self-esteem to attain happiness. In fact immoral actions destroy self-esteem wherever a sacrifice is taking place.
Selflessness always holds as a standard a sacrifice of values to others. It is always improper and antithetical to ones own happiness to do anything out of a sense of 'selfless' duty divorced from reason and objective values. I would never befriend a person who considers selflessness the basis of moral action.
As I am not going to repeat myself please see my previous posts for clarification on what I mean by that.
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