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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
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Apollo or Dionysus?
    #11329335 - 10/27/09 03:28 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

If you were to identify with the attributes of one of these mythical Gods, which would you choose?

Apollo (Apollonian or Apollinian): the dream state or the wish to create order, principium individuationis (principle of individuation), plastic (visual) arts, beauty, clarity, stint to formed boundaries, individuality, celebration of appearance/illusion, human beings as artists (or media of art's manifestation), self-control, perfection, exhaustion of possibilities, creation, the rational/logical and reasonable.

Dionysus (Dionysian): chaos, intoxication, celebration of nature, instinctual, intuitive, pertaining to the sensation of pleasure or pain, individuality dissolved and hence destroyed, wholeness of existence, orgiastic passion, dissolution of all boundaries, excess, human being(s) as the work and glorification of art, destruction, the irrational and non-logical.
Apollo or Dionysus
You may choose only one
Apollo
Dionysus


Votes accepted from (10/27/09 03:27 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



Edited by RationalEgo (10/27/09 03:56 AM)


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11329413 - 10/27/09 03:43 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

when asking questions like this, it is good to give people an idea of what you think are the primary distinctions between these gods?

I seem to feel the main distinction is that apollo represents joys that can be shared, things that have meaning and exist between, including art, literature, legend, celebration.
Dionysus on the other hand represents carnal, personal pleasures - sensations, ecstacy, careless abandon.

They are both individual and shared, because each person ahs their own view on apollonian goods, and because people all relate with eachother in the ways that they recieve dionysian goods.

I personally would identify myself moreso with Apollo.. simply because Dionysian pleasures are temporary and exist in individuals.. whereas apollonian pleasures can permeate a whole lifetime and throughout a community. And I like to expand myself beyond the mere contingency of my body here on earth.. I like to expand into the collective consciousness of all humanity that nourished me into 'more than an animal'. Even if my belief in this is merely an Apollonian pleasure in itself, without 'logical' basis

but this is not to say I deny Dionysian pleasures... I just do not feel any need to identify with them or support them, for they are everywhere, and in every shape and colour. They are merely a part of this life along with pain. However, Appolonian pleasures... these are only about because of the creativity of individuals and the way that this harmonises with the beliefs of people throughout history


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11329449 - 10/27/09 03:55 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You are right, I was assuming prior knowledge of the attributes. I just fixed my initial post.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11329474 - 10/27/09 04:04 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Good clarification.. though I feel as though there must be an inherent individuation in Dionysian.. even if there is no 'meaning' in the individual, it is still the pure unit of existance, a 'self' which wants to dissolve the universe around it and thus be totally self and free from defined externalities. Similarly, I feel as though in Apollonian, meaning is given to individuals, but ultimately individuality is one of the many illusory forms that we percieve. People escape their 'self'ness by seeing epitomy in something external to them. what do you think?


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11329484 - 10/27/09 04:09 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

As an absolute Apollonian I reject the notion that 'selfness' is in any way illusory. I also reject the notion of the self 'dissolving' into some undefined existential wholeness.

My only objection to the above descriptions is the definition of art in each case. I would switch them as the glorification of the 'human' is much more fitting the Apollo, and the abstract art if more fitting to the Dionysian.

So yeah, I would have much rather have watched the Apollo space launch than have gone to the 'Dionysian' Woodstock. :grin:


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OfflineGalTRooT
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11329496 - 10/27/09 04:14 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I hear they were both good, respectively.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11329516 - 10/27/09 04:20 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Well I think though things like that... woodstock had different levels of joy... on one level was merely people feeling 'good'... this could occur anywhere though. The extra level of appreciating that woodstock was a significant event for humans, to get together en mass and celebrate life in a single place, with some of the most significant artists, is very much a 'meaningful' pleasure, and you could even call it 'awe-some'.

Im not sure if art can be dionysian except in the way that it can make us forget about reality, or distract us from things, or 'set the scene' for a range of sensations...

hmm but this implies that the art's meaning is thus leading to a state of physical awareness..

I am starting to think ther is not such thing as apollonian and dionysian goods, merely apollonian and dionysian types of pleasure, and either or both of these can arise from the goods in the world


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11329908 - 10/27/09 08:37 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Dionysus is not necessarily attached to pleasure and pain, taking security from sensation but enjoy's sensation (preference not addiction, everyone has preference). To me the Dionysian way sounds like more fun. Drugs, primal orgies and nature you can't go wrong with that combo.


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"Some are born to sweet delight, others to the endless night."


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11330599 - 10/27/09 12:08 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

A lil of both, please.


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Jesus loves you.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: andrewss]
    #11330638 - 10/27/09 12:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Dionysus no question.

Lets get wasted and have orgies:thumbup:


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: andrewss]
    #11331252 - 10/27/09 02:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
A lil of both, please.




If you had to pick one, which one would it be?


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OfflineSpiral11235
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11331273 - 10/27/09 02:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

This sounds like the Left and Right hemispheres of the human brain..

Could I choose a balance of both, leaning a little more to the right?  :gethigh:

I did choose Dionysus.. by the way :wink:


Edited by Spiral11235 (10/27/09 02:17 PM)


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: Spiral11235]
    #11331299 - 10/27/09 02:19 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Spiral11235 said:
This sounds like the Left and Right hemispheres of the human brain..

Could I choose a balance of both, leaning a little more to the right?  :gethigh:

I did choose Dionysus.. by the way :wink:




Nietzsche proposed that a balance was the best option, but then he went insane and spent many years on a psyche ward. :shrug:


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OfflineSpiral11235
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11331607 - 10/27/09 03:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

Spiral11235 said:
This sounds like the Left and Right hemispheres of the human brain..

Could I choose a balance of both, leaning a little more to the right?  :gethigh:

I did choose Dionysus.. by the way :wink:




Nietzsche proposed that a balance was the best option, but then he went insane and spent many years on a psyche ward. :shrug:




Hmm... I'll look into this.  :thumbup:


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11331683 - 10/27/09 03:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

Spiral11235 said:
This sounds like the Left and Right hemispheres of the human brain..

Could I choose a balance of both, leaning a little more to the right?  :gethigh:

I did choose Dionysus.. by the way :wink:




Nietzsche proposed that a balance was the best option, but then he went insane and spent many years on a psyche ward. :shrug:




Eager to connect supposed causal dots, no?

Actually study the specifics of a person before forming ideas about them... or at least realize the pettiness of the said opinion :wink:

I would say Dionysus if I had to choose them but I dont have to :wink:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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OfflineLion
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11331787 - 10/27/09 03:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder if you could elaborate on your views about what constitute a self, RationalEgo, for curiosity's sake.

I can see my particular ways of musing about reality in aspects of both deities, though I feel I have shed some of the Dionysian thinking of my heavy alcohol- and pot-use days in favor of striving to self-actualize in terms of reasoning skills, emotional maturity and steadiness, artistic expression, finding a niche in the world, etc.  I do not believe that there is a contiguous self to be found anywhere in the many processes which comprise the human being, but not that the individual human being should strive for a high level of self-awareness and a mastery of the faculties of expression and creativity.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: Lion]
    #11331851 - 10/27/09 03:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

My views on the nature of the self/ego mirror what Ayn Rand said:

"A man’s self is his mind—the faculty that perceives reality, forms judgments, chooses values." -AR

In Atlas Shrugged infamous Galt speech she says thus:

"The self you have betrayed is your mind; self-esteem is reliance on one’s power to think. The ego you seek, that essential “you” which you cannot express or define, is not your emotions or inarticulate dreams, but your intellect, that judge of your supreme tribunal whom you’ve impeached in order to drift at the mercy of any stray shyster you describe as your “feeling.”" - AR


If you renounce your mind you renounce the very basis for a achieving high self-esteem. The faculties of expression and creativity all rely on your ability to think and judge properly and thoroughly about yourself, your actions and the world around you.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11331957 - 10/27/09 04:04 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
My views on the nature of the self/ego mirror what Ayn Rand said:

"A man?s self is his mind?the faculty that perceives reality, forms judgments, chooses values." -AR

In Atlas Shrugged infamous Galt speech she says thus:

  Add Signature  Preview Rep"The self you have betrayed is your mind; self-esteem is reliance on one?s power to think. The ego you seek, that essential ?you? which you cannot express or define, is not your emotions or inarticulate dreams, but your intellect, that judge of your supreme tribunal whom you?ve impeached in order to drift at the mercy of any stray shyster you describe as your ?feeling.?" - AR


If you renounce your mind you renounce the very basis for a achieving high self-esteem. The faculties of expression and creativity all rely on your ability to think and judge properly and thoroughly about yourself, your actions and the world around you.




da fuck?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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OfflineLion
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11331963 - 10/27/09 04:05 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The self you have betrayed is your mind; self-esteem is reliance on one’s power to think. The ego you seek, that essential “you” which you cannot express or define, is not your emotions or inarticulate dreams, but your intellect


I do not understand this fully, maybe because it is pulled from the context of a much larger work with which I am not familiar.  There is a confusing plurality expressed here between "self" and "mind" and between the seeker of the self and the self that is sought.

I do not see how the intellect alone can be one's essential self.  The intellect is not the ground of one's being, one's experience, one's physicality.  There are many processes which are ontologically prior to the intellect.  How can the self be a construct (the capacity for abstract thought, reason, predictive ability) which has only evolved within the primate form in the geological blink of an eye?  How can we discern when not-self became self in the primate mind, and whether this self represents the ultimate refinement of the capacity for thought?

Though the intellect may be useful for achieving worldly aims, it does not comprise a self, or a totality of any sort.  It is one component process in a layered gestalt from which it cannot be extricated.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Apollo or Dionysus? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11332046 - 10/27/09 04:15 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I voted wrong. Can i vote again?


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