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Offlinelaserpig
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Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ...
    #11327663 - 10/26/09 10:55 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Freedom from WHAT?



I do not have an answer. Do you?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11327670 - 10/26/09 10:56 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Freedom from oppression. :shrug:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: Poid]
    #11327717 - 10/26/09 11:02 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Basically, I do not understand free will at all.

If we have free will, what would a person who does not have free will look like?
If we do not have free will, the reverse question is just as valid.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11327751 - 10/26/09 11:05 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Basically, I do not understand free will at all.

If we have free will, what would a person who does not have free will look like?


There's no such thing; this is like a single-sided coin, it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. :shrug:



Quote:

laserpig said:
If we do not have free will, the reverse question is just as valid.


:confused:

Remember, I'm completarded. :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: Poid]
    #11327786 - 10/26/09 11:09 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

If you're telling me that free will does not exist, and you want me to believe that your statement means anything, you're gonna have to define free will for me ... and in doing so answer my OP question.


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11327803 - 10/26/09 11:11 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

I'm not trying to harass answers out of you -- if you have them, I would truly love to hear them, but I don't mean to demand anything.

In a way, I'm trying to prove a point: the only thing one can ever learn from discussing free will is that nobody knows what the fuck they're actually talking about when they discuss free will.

Assuming that the above is true ... god damn that is a fascinating situation.


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Edited by laserpig (10/26/09 11:12 PM)


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OfflineNastyDHL
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11327867 - 10/26/09 11:19 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Freedom from WHAT?



I do not have an answer. Do you?




freedom from control


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11327880 - 10/26/09 11:20 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

i think free will is the opposite of predeterminism

rather than our futures being completely predicted and hardwired into the universe's unfolding, free will gives creative influence to the individual to shape future events via the appearance of conscious choices

there's certainly the appearance of free will - that is, individuals experience the mental process of choice decision - but whether this itself is really free or not is up to debate - as it could also be a predetermined unfolding of causes and effects wherein the individual is no more than a fabricated illusory phenomenon

to really get at the heart of the issue though is to question what the "person" really is. that is, "who" is making the choices freely under free will - and what does this imply? this approach makes it a bit more complicated than some black-box "person A makes choice B", as really there *is no person* and just mental experiences of person and of choice.

does it matter if we have free will? :shrug:


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: deff]
    #11328589 - 10/27/09 01:07 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

freedom is always relative. a free man is still bound by their society's laws and also the laws of nature. Freedom generally means without constraint/overcontrol/opression/influence.
Are peoples 'wills' free from the laws of physics? well we highly doubt this, because it sort of seems like a paradox, unless our minds were drawing on information that comes from outside the universe.

BUT are the universe's laws deterministic?

and if they trully are, does this mean we have NO SOUL :frown:


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11328682 - 10/27/09 01:24 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

What does "deterministic" mean?
Is there any possibility of an observable difference between a predetermined (but complex) reality and a "free" one?


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11328764 - 10/27/09 01:43 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Well.. sort of... I mean if the state of a system is found to not be predictable from the states before it. but even then, it might just show that we are unable to predict well


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OfflineJasonVira
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11328889 - 10/27/09 02:04 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Basically, I do not understand free will at all.

If we have free will, what would a person who does not have free will look like?
If we do not have free will, the reverse question is just as valid.




Life is for enjoying, not necessarily 'understanding'.

I just used my apparent "free will" to give you the best rating possible  :grin:


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OfflineJasonVira
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11328902 - 10/27/09 02:06 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
What does "deterministic" mean?
Is there any possibility of an observable difference between a predetermined (but complex) reality and a "free" one?




If you think that peace of mind is going to come from having people answer these questions you are asking you are sadly mistaken

Peace of mind MUST be earned through the proper disciplining of the mind. It takes concerted, determined work to live and think properly. You won't get it from having your pet questions answered. :cool:


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Offlinezombi
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11328930 - 10/27/09 02:10 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

there are a few theories of determinism. one is causal determinism which basically says that everything that i do or think is a product of my present environment and my personality. so i will act in a certain way in a certain situation not because i choose to do so (free will) but because that outcome is determined by the circumstances.

another one is divine knowledge determinism (not 100% on the names but they get the idea across). this one relies on the existence of god. it says that god knows everything (god, duh). if god knows everything then He knows how i will act in a given situation. if He knows that before i act, do i really have the free will to choose my own actions?

there are one or two more variations but its all very similar. they something to the effect that we may think we have the free will to choose our actions but it is really an illusion of free will. i like michael hoffman's block universe theory, but with my own variations. its very similar to divine knowledge determinism without the god aspect.

i know a few cites that explain it much more thoroughly if anyone is interested.


edit: i forgot to answer the OPs question.

its not necessarily freedom from something, rather freedom of choice to use our will to affect our actions and environment. or something like that.


--------------------
My words, too, are only an echo; but there is no reason why I should not repeat what I have heard.                    :zombie5:
-Socrates                                                                Let the rabbits wear glasses!
:gd_icon::trippycow::gd_icon:


Edited by zombi (10/27/09 02:13 AM)


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: JasonVira]
    #11329014 - 10/27/09 02:26 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

JasonVira said:
If you think that peace of mind is going to come from having people answer these questions you are asking you are sadly mistaken

Peace of mind MUST be earned through the proper disciplining of the mind. It takes concerted, determined work to live and think properly. You won't get it from having your pet questions answered. :cool:



Please don't mistake my "pet" questions as being points in and of themselves.
I am not looking for any kind of pacification when I ask these questions, I am asking them because the subject cannot be adequately addressed unless they are answered.

Really, I mean them rhetorically, and I hope that they'll be interpreted in the context of all my previous posts.
Basically I'm attempting to pick apart a conception of the universe which feels intuitively ... suspect ... and I'm doing it with the linguistic tools I've got.
Everything in a linguistic argument is based on a foundation of definitions, and rhetorical questions do a fairly good job of directing attention to those foundations.


That there are two diametrically opposed camps (those who believe in free will of the spirit and those who believe in determinism via material laws), that the two views are so incompatable, and that they both so fail to provide intuitively satisfying answers about life ... all of this suggests to me that they need to be seriously reexamined and compared.


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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11329043 - 10/27/09 02:33 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
all of this suggests to me that they need to be seriously reexamined and compared.




What might happen if they aren't seriously reexamined and compared?


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: Mufungo]
    #11329061 - 10/27/09 02:36 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

People will continue thinking and acting in absurd ways based on false assumptions.

This would by no means be a new development -- actually, it's the norm.
I just think that pushing for a better way of thinking is a worthwhile pursuit.


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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11329586 - 10/27/09 04:57 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

What might happen if people continue thinking and acting in absurd ways based on false assumptions about free will or determinism?


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: Mufungo]
    #11330597 - 10/27/09 12:08 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Destruction of ecosystem, personal alienation ... just general unhappiness.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Implicit in the concept of Free Will is a question ... [Re: laserpig]
    #11331093 - 10/27/09 01:43 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Basically, I do not understand free will at all.

If we have free will, what would a person who does not have free will look like?
If we do not have free will, the reverse question is just as valid.





This is one reason why IMO it's one of the most pointless discussions we have here. No one would act differently if the answer is one or the other.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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