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OfflineNoteworthy
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Immaterialism
    #11323351 - 10/26/09 12:09 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

It seems to be a common thought in today's age that matter is an illusion and that the universe is in fact void of all matter, and that it is actually just energy. This energy is represented as waves occuring in spacetime.
The notion of the luminous aether was discounted... however the notion of 'spacetime' is accepted. In light of this, I belive immaterialism is wrong. Rather, we see that the material of the universe is much more subtle than the sort that we humans imagine day to day. There is in fact no absence of matter.. the universe is all of the matter, all of the spacetime, and a vacuum simply represents a state of this matter.
Some might say that I am redefining matter to mean something more than is traditionally accepted. I don't think I am. I think the best definition for matter is to say that it is something that can be said to exist across a region of space. This has been disputed by modern science. Quantum physicists say that nothing can be said to definately exist in any point in space at all. Bye bye materialism, apparently.
Sensory material is all that really matters to humans in general... but when people try to conceptualise atomic structures out of interest, it seems that the conclusion that 'there is no matter in the universe' is a confusion of 'none of the things that we say are in the universe are material'. Material is everywhere but we cannot percieve it directly, we can only percieve the frequencies that it carries in each direction.
I think that the substance of the universe exists everywhere and carries energy across discrete transfers, as wave-forms. We can only detect this transfer of information through spacetime, which seems to exist, to the best of our knowledge, in probablistic ways - so it appears to us as if nothing can be said to be material and thus that nothing is material


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11323643 - 10/26/09 01:10 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
It seems to be a common thought in today's age that matter is an illusion and that the universe is in fact void of all matter, and that it is actually just energy. This energy is represented as waves occuring in spacetime.
The notion of the luminous aether was discounted... however the notion of 'spacetime' is accepted. In light of this, I belive immaterialism is wrong. Rather, we see that the material of the universe is much more subtle than the sort that we humans imagine day to day. There is in fact no absence of matter.. the universe is all of the matter, all of the spacetime, and a vacuum simply represents a state of this matter.
Some might say that I am redefining matter to mean something more than is traditionally accepted. I don't think I am. I think the best definition for matter is to say that it is something that can be said to exist across a region of space. This has been disputed by modern science. Quantum physicists say that nothing can be said to definately exist in any point in space at all. Bye bye materialism, apparently.
Sensory material is all that really matters to humans in general... but when people try to conceptualise atomic structures out of interest, it seems that the conclusion that 'there is no matter in the universe' is a confusion of 'none of the things that we say are in the universe are material'. Material is everywhere but we cannot percieve it directly, we can only percieve the frequencies that it carries in each direction.
I think that the substance of the universe exists everywhere and carries energy across discrete transfers, as wave-forms. We can only detect this transfer of information through spacetime, which seems to exist, to the best of our knowledge, in probablistic ways - so it appears to us as if nothing can be said to be material and thus that nothing is material





Brilliant IMO, :thumbup:

We really avoid plumbing the depths of the material. Why? Material decays. We will pass. That is emotionally unexceptable to many and it's happening much on the unconscious level. :thumbup::satansmoking:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Icelander]
    #11326472 - 10/26/09 08:05 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Nice post :chugbeer:


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Icelander]
    #11330001 - 10/27/09 09:30 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Do you really think that people avoid pressing the matter of material due to emotional issues concerning typically unserstood 'material' things?


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11330078 - 10/27/09 10:01 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Every body wants freedom from attachments, but at the same time they dont want to  let go of their attachments as they fear the loss (death anxiety)

:peace:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11331011 - 10/27/09 01:27 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Do you really think that people avoid pressing the matter of material due to emotional issues concerning typically unserstood 'material' things?





Yes I do. If I could accept that death was basic to existence I would live with more gusto IMO. I often let my fear of death stop me from taking risks that are reasonable.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePlatinum
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Chronic7]
    #11331036 - 10/27/09 01:32 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Every body wants freedom from attachments, but at the same time they dont want to  let go of their attachments as they fear the loss (death anxiety)

:peace:




Well said, I agree. I'm guilty of this too.


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I SUPPORT NEUROSOUP

“Do not let your material possessions be who you are.”


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11334601 - 10/27/09 10:35 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

What the hell is matter anyway?  We used to think we knew, but quantum mechanics shows that what we thought was actually something solid and firm was actually some weird phenomenon that's either a particle or a wave depending on how we measure it.  We know that 99.9999% of the universe is empty space, even within an atom.  We know that the apparent surface tension experienced on solid surfaces is actually the result of the opposing electromagnetic fields of different atoms.  I think matter is becoming a rapidly outdated concept.  It seems it be more accurate to speak of the universe as composed of energy.  More accurate still would be to say the universe consists of relationships.  But I would side with Whitehead in saying that the fundamental substance of the universe is events.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Silversoul]
    #11334835 - 10/27/09 11:10 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Silversoul, my point is that matter is everywhere, conducting that energy you speak of. It is more the notion that vacuum is something rather than nothing, for there is not really any thing such as 'nothing'. Nothing really represents 'something that we cannot say is anything'. If any REAL no-thingness actually could be said to exist somehow, we humans would not be able to apprehend it.

If we find our that solid surfaces are the result of opposing electromagnetic fields of different atoms... how does this make them any less solid? They still feel, appear, and act in the same way they always have. All of the meaningful /measurable / functional aspects of the matter are still there, the only thing that has changed is the imagery that we use when trying to imagine these things.

So there are two routes:

to define matter through its relationships with other things in the universe.
in which case matter is matter and discovering that there is plenty of 'empty space' in matter doesnt change any of this. You still can't put your head through a wall...

OR we can define matter as a way of imagining the universe.
In which case it seems more appropriate to imagine the whole universe as matter, without ANY gaps at all (for this would sort of be absurd), and what we THINK and FEEL to be matter is actually just patterns of vibration in the overall matter of the universe.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11334860 - 10/27/09 11:14 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I think we could still use the term "matter" in common vernacular, in the same way that we still talk about the sun rising and falling, even though we know that that's not really what's going on.  So yes, we can still talk about matter metaphorically, but I'd say it no longer makes sense as a scientific concept.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Immaterialism [Re: Silversoul]
    #11334946 - 10/27/09 11:29 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Well I would like to know why? Since it never really made sense as a sceintific concept.. ? What did it mean for ancient philosophers to talk of particles of matter? Im pretty sure it was just as metaphorical as talking about macro-scale things? In fact, thats all it was originally, a metaphor for explaining the tiny in the terms of the visible.
However time moves on and now people talk as if the universe is empty. EMPTY. well this might be meaningless to many people but I think it is significant and keeps people focussed on the things they can detect, as if THAT is what exists. Wheras I am proposing that it is not right to say that nothing exists in most of the universe,
but it is right to say that certain parts of the universe are less active than others.


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