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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh?
    #11320223 - 10/25/09 08:26 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

So I found this freak growing on some forest debris mixed with sand under some Hemlocks.  I liked the red gills so I printed it.  The spore print is black under flash and purple-black in any other light.  Under the scope the spores are nearly colorless.  But it has free gills!  What the hell?  I thought the only mushrooms with free gills were Agaricus, Pluteus, Amanita or Lepiota.

I measured one spore.  It was 4.44 x 2.96 microns, pretty small.

Other Trusted Identifiers (or anyone) have any ideas?








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Invisiblefeelfunny
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11320355 - 10/25/09 08:50 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

it sure is differant. wish i could help ith what it is.


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Invisiblelqdtrance
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: feelfunny]
    #11320539 - 10/25/09 09:20 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Nice shots MM. Not sure what it is though. I think Zimmer and I came across something similar. At least it looks familiar to me.


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11320570 - 10/25/09 09:27 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Very interesting Mr. Mushrooms, I like the pigments in these, I suspect it to be a Psathyrella species.
Edit: Maybe something in Subgenus Pannucia with what looks like a well developed appendiculate pileus margin.
inski.


Edited by inski (10/25/09 09:47 PM)


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: lqdtrance]
    #11322115 - 10/26/09 02:03 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Thanks lq.  Did Bob have any idea what it was?  I get stumped a lot, but not usually with something as obvious as free gills.  I forgot to mention Coprinus as another genus with free gills.  I don't think of them that way because usually the melting gills are the identifying feature.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: inski]
    #11322232 - 10/26/09 02:31 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

inski said:
Very interesting Mr. Mushrooms, I like the pigments in these, I suspect it to be a Psathyrella species.
Edit: Maybe something in Subgenus Pannucia with what looks like a well developed appendiculate pileus margin.
inski.




Thanks inski.  Two genera seemed possible to me, Lepiota before the print, Psathyrella after the print.  I looked in my monograph after seeing them under the scope and thought it reminded me of Subgenus Cystopsathyra because of the veil.  I didn't want to believe it was a Psathyrella anyway because of the gill attachment.  Arora says Psathyrella gills are usually attached.  I thought he meant some might be free so I checked out the monograph.  Nope.  All the descriptions I read had some kind of attachment other than free.  I discount the genus for that reason.

Pannucia fits to some degree, minus the attachment.  In fact, P. barlae and P. barlae f. minor both have red gills.  Unfortunately all the spores of that subgenus are pretty large, some as long as 18 microns, huge.

The gill attachment just bugs me.  I've seen plenty of seceding gills, some you would swear are free.  There is no way these are anything but free.

We must be missing something.  If someone wants to post these at Mushroom Observer for their opinion they are more than welcome.


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Invisiblelqdtrance
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11322897 - 10/26/09 09:24 AM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Flipping through my pictures of yesterdays hunt I didn't locate one like yours. I must be thinking of another either that or I have seen something similar in the close past. But yours looks really familiar. Wish I could help.


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InvisibleDannyGlick

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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11323460 - 10/26/09 12:33 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Some woodland Panaeolus can have seemingly free gills in maturity, like Panaeolus fontinalis. I honestly don't know what they are, but they're very beautiful.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: DannyGlick]
    #11323707 - 10/26/09 01:24 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Thanks guys.

Danny, the spores are very weird to me.  I've never seen anything like it.  Black in deposit but nearly clear under the scope.  One thing I am sure of, the gills are free.


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11326247 - 10/26/09 07:44 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Hmm, very interesting, maybe you could check out some Pholiota keys!
The gill attachment could be an extreme case of an adnexed attachment giving the appearance of being free and the spores may be a very dark brown colour!
Good luck, I hope you can find an identity for these unusual specimens.
inski.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: inski]
    #11326407 - 10/26/09 07:59 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

I don't have any Pholiota monographs, but I can assure you, these gills are free.

Thanks for all the help,
MM


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OfflineYou can all etibem
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11326513 - 10/26/09 08:08 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

My first thought was a Psath, but... I also wouldn't count out Agaricus, (OK it's a stretch)
I guess what I'm saying is I got nothing (yet)

Post it on Mushroom Observer, it's distinctive enough that if anybody has seen it before they would remember it.


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OfflineDishez
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: You can all etibem]
    #11326639 - 10/26/09 08:23 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

these are Melanophyllum echinatum, aka red-gilled agaricus.
When i found them a few years ago they had a smell like burning wires...was that the case for you Mr. Mushrums?


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OfflineYou can all etibem
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Dishez]
    #11326705 - 10/26/09 08:35 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)


Quote:

these are Melanophyllum echinatum, aka red-gilled agaricus.




That's it. I've read about them somewhere (Audubon book maybe?)but never seen them.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: You can all etibem]
    #11326745 - 10/26/09 08:40 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

You can all etibem said:
My first thought was a Psath, but... I also wouldn't count out Agaricus, (OK it's a stretch)
I guess what I'm saying is I got nothing (yet)

Post it on Mushroom Observer, it's distinctive enough that if anybody has seen it before they would remember it.




I was secretly hoping you would post.  Agaricus is a stretch but it is correct!

Already posted at Mushroom Observer by, who else, ShroomyDan.

Walt Sturgeon, from Ohio whose help was vital to Gary Lincoff for the Audubon Field guide to North American Mushrooms, said:

Quote:

I have found this once in 30 years. Mine was on an old bail of hay along a road in a boggy forest. Good find!




http://mushroomobserver.org/12404?search_seq=909392

It is in the Audubon, photo 159, description on pg. 523.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Dishez]
    #11326757 - 10/26/09 08:42 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Dishez said:
these are Melanophyllum echinatum, aka red-gilled agaricus.
When i found them a few years ago they had a smell like burning wires...was that the case for you Mr. Mushrums?





These didn't have any discernible smell but they are them.  Nice job!

Have 5 on me (if I didn't rate you already).

:woot:

I told you guys the gills were free.


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OfflinepsychedelicSLUG
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11341696 - 10/28/09 10:58 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)


the cap kinda looks the same?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: psychedelicSLUG]
    #11341974 - 10/28/09 11:41 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)

Kinda but not the same.


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OfflinepsychedelicSLUG
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Re: Red Gills, Free Attachment, Black Spore print, huh? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11341997 - 10/28/09 11:44 PM (8 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Kinda but not the same.



haha i know... :rolleyes:


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