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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos?
    #11319819 - 10/25/09 07:19 PM (8 years, 1 hour ago)

I know that:
2 of the three can only be discerned by their spores. Tropicalis and cyanescens.
What about cambos? What distinguishes them from the two aforementioned species?

Thanks


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #11320822 - 10/25/09 10:15 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Are you guys frickin' kidding me here?


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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #11321135 - 10/25/09 10:53 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Cambo's make sclerotia.


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #11322085 - 10/26/09 01:55 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

No? GTFO!! You're joking, right?


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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #11322213 - 10/26/09 02:26 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I've been puzzling over this myself and here is the best I have come up with so far.

Panaeolus cyanescens: The most common (in the wild) species, pallid pins or only slightly pigmented that soon fade with maturity, large spores (majority over 12 microns).

Panaeolus cambodginiensis: The second most common species, very dark chocolate to olive pins, small spores (majority under 12 microns), sometimes produces sclerotia-like bodies. This species seems to be overly represented in circulated strains compared to purely wild collections.

Panaeolus tropicalis: rare, pallid pins, small spores (like P. cambodginiensis).  This is the most confused documented species.  Stamets (1996) indicates that it is an exclusively two spored species (two spores per basidium) which is incorrect according to all other sources.  Gerhardt's (1996) key to the Copelandia implies that it’s a darkly pigmented species which conflicts with the actual description in the same document (which is based on Ola’h’s (1969) original description). Ola’h (1969) gives great importance to the internally granulated transparent spores of P. tropicalis, but Gerhardt’s (1996) examination of Ola’h’s herbarium deposits notes only opaque spores. Gerhardt instead gives importance to the form of the pleurocystidia, which are distinctly cone-shaped compared to other Copelandia.  I have not yet seen any convincing examples of this species in circulation or from wild collections.

Selected References:

Gerhardt E., 1996. Taxonomische Revision der Gattungen Panaeolus und Panaeolina. Bibl. Bot. 47, Schweizerbart’sche Verlagsbuchhandlung, Stuttgart.

Ola’h, G.M., 1969. Le genre Panaeolus: essai taxonomique et physiologique. Revue de Mycologie, Memoire Hors-Serie 10.

Stamets, P., 1996. Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World. Berkeley, Calif.: Ten Speed Press.


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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: Workman]
    #11322271 - 10/26/09 02:43 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Excellent post.  And there we see proof of the difficulties of mushroom taxonomy.  According to Stamets (Ola'h) P. tropicalis spores have internal granulations and P. cyanescens do not.  Is that your experience as well?


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11322963 - 10/26/09 09:55 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

If by buddy grows these out, would you guys be able to identify the cambo?

I'll post the ID's in here in a few months. Right now he only has an outdoor azure bed going, but I'll talk him into growing some of the Copelandia species. =)


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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11323376 - 10/26/09 12:13 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I've seen a range of transparency and granulation in several Copelandian strains/species so its a feature of doubtful taxonomic significance.  According to Ola’h the granulation is a swelling response to the KOH mounting medium.  This ability to swell is probably lost as the sample ages, which would explain why Gerhardt didn't observe it in the 40 year old herbarium samples.

mushroomhunter10: Since P. tropicalis is extremely rare, the chances are that you will have P. cambodginiensis or P. cyanescens.  The easiest way to tell these two species apart is the pin coloration.  The cambodginiensis will have very dark brown to dark olive colored pins while cyanescens will have cream to yellow to tan pins.  As the mushrooms mature they tend to grow to look the same and are nearly impossible to tell apart without a microscope.


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Edited by Workman (10/26/09 02:06 PM)


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: Workman]
    #11323691 - 10/26/09 01:21 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Excellent.  Again, thanks for the informative response.  There has been a rash of putative P. tropicalis* prints being distributed.  I think I might have one from last year.  I never checked it out.  Now I will.

*My bad.  I wrote the wrong species.


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Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (10/26/09 01:49 PM)


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: Workman]
    #11323797 - 10/26/09 01:43 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

How can you tell if it's a tropicalis then.

Is tropicalis eventually impossible to distinguish from the cambo and cyanescens as well?

Thanks u guys.


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Re: How to tell these apart? Pan cyans, tropicalis, cambos? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #11323887 - 10/26/09 01:57 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Assuming P. tropicalis is a valid species, the only way to tell it apart from P. cyanescens is by microscopic features.  As far as I can tell from the literature, P. tropicalis should look macroscopically pretty much the same as P. cyanescens with light colored pins.  I haven't seen one myself and none of the circulating specimens labeled as P. tropicalis that I have examined are a good match.

I've been slowly compiling/translating all the information available on this topic with the intention of posting an easy to use guide.

Update 6/1/12

Updated information on P. tropicalis identification now available in link below.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15903385#15903385


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Edited by Workman (06/01/12 02:44 PM)


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