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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 532
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1125603 - 12/09/02 06:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Very well put Alex.


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Anonymous

Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1125941 - 12/09/02 08:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Examples of how TV results in mindless drones of people:

Watch a football game on CBS and compare the number of commercials, especially commercials for useless shit, to on ESPN.

Watch a movie on TNT and compare the number of commercials with those on Comedy Central. The more readily and popular TV stations have seen the gold mind of advertising, and do every damn thing they can to make another buck.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phluck]
    #1126625 - 12/09/02 10:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Why do so many people listen to Britney Spears or Limp Bizkit? Because it's all they hear. No eleven year old kid is going to know how to seek out the good stuff, especially when he has all this easily digested musical pablum right in front of him.

You said it Phluck!  :grin:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phluck]
    #1126886 - 12/09/02 11:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)


That's not true. It's forced on us, it's the first thing we hear or see when we turn on the TV, open up any magazine, or even just go out in public.



Why do so many people listen to Britney Spears or Limp Bizkit? Because it's all they hear. No eleven year old kid is going to know how to seek out the good stuff, especially when he has all this easily digested musical pablum right in front of him.


Yes, this drivel is ubiquitous. It is this way because a lot of people don't have
very good taste(in my opinion), and corporations give people what they want(i.e.
vapid garbage).

You seem to be saying that the American public's tastes are confined to what
they see and hear, and what they see and hear is controlled by a few people.
There is some truth to that. But, there comes a time when a person must take
responsibility for themselves, and realize who they are. If a person is not capable
of thinking or doing anything on their own, or if they have a homogenized view of
what the world is and how one should live, then they are stupid. That is not the
corporation's fault, they merely take advantage of it.


RandalFlagg


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1127372 - 12/10/02 02:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Government for the last 20-30 years has simply been the public face of big business.

Reading comprehension, Alex, reading comprehension. My comment was "I'd rather live in a WORLD with more corporations than more government." There are governments in the world in countries other than the United States. There's not much big business in Cambodia or the ex-USSR or North Korea or China or Cuba or Iran etc. Certainly the governments of those countries hardly represent "the public face of big business".

All the same it's better than the nightmare of what happens when corporations had total control.

And that would be when and where, exactly?

You only have to look at the weaker governments in south east asia where the corporations have complete control.

Such as?

10 year girls working in dangerous working conditions, 36 hour shifts... bla bla bla

Sigh. The patented Alex123 hyperbole and outright untruths. There are no 10 year old girls working 36 hour shifts in any corporate factories anywhere. I doubt there were even ever Zeks in the Gulag Archipelago during Stalin's reign who worked 36 hour shifts -- certainly neither Solzhenitsyn nor any other Soviet dissidents ever saw fit to mention it. There are however young girls (and boys and adults of both sexes) voluntarily working long hours for low pay (by the standards of the Twenty-First century Western World) in some developing countries. These people do so by choice -- they are not rounded up at the point of a gun and chained to their work stations. Let me ask you yet again (knowing full well you will never answer the question) why these people choose to seek such employment?

pinky


--------------------


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
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Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phred]
    #1128091 - 12/10/02 09:45 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"These people do so by choice -- they are not rounded up at the point of a gun and chained to their work stations. Let me ask you yet again (knowing full well you will never answer the question) why these people choose to seek such employment?"

I'll take that one, but first let me ask you one, pinky: Why aren't children allowed to "choose" to take similar jobs in the U.S., Canada, or a list of other nations?

The capitalist use of the term "force" requires the most literal of definitions. You feel you need to make the distinction, fine, but I hardly think you've thrown out the other uses (such as by Alex and Phluck in this thread.) in some cases I'd say that a gun to the head or a chain to the sewing machine area about the ONLY way the people AREN'T forced. In a "free" society, subtler means are necessary.

Anyway, what "forces" people to "choose" to take such employment must vary from one situation to the next, but it generally boils down to shitty conditions where there are little or no other options to go around. One big cause of this is war. The U.S. military strategy in Southeast Asia was to eliminate the two hiding spots of the resistance--the jungle (agent orange was used here) and villages (massive bombing and air raids were used here). Farmlands were destroyed in the process as well. I don't know if the resulting mass urbanization was part of a master plan or not, but a huge population of displaced refugees do make a very available, very willing workforce.

U.S.-backed governments/factions/regimes in Guatemala, El Salvador, and other countries used similar tactics to battle the leftist guerillas in their own forests and villages. The result was similar mass urbanization and similar destruction of local economies.

Now we might hear the response, "Oh, so it would be better for these evil corporations to stay out and let these people starve?" I'd say no, but this takes us back to the problems of child labor and other unfair practices. People are being taken complete advantage of. Often they are poorer than dirt, there's no raise on the horizon, they have little or no education, no means of providing one to their co-worker children, and they probably have no idea what people are talking about when they use words like "freedom" and "opportunity". And how many of them work for mega-huge multi-national corporations?

It sure would be nice if these groups of people could join together and win a better hand in things, a fairer share of the fruits of their labors. There are cases where this happens. But a lot of times the people who try to help these people get organized wind up dead or missing.

hongomon


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: hongomon]
    #1128291 - 12/10/02 11:33 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hongomon! Long time no see. How's tricks?

You write:

Why aren't children allowed to "choose" to take similar jobs in the U.S., Canada, or a list of other nations?

So your problem is not with the fact that people in these nations choose to accept employment at what you consider to be insufficient wages, your problem is that they allow their children to do so?

To answer your question, the reason children are not legally allowed to accept such a job in most Western countries (although there are plenty of pre-adolescents in farm families who work harder than many slackers I know who suck off unemployment insurance and welfare benefits) is that the governments of those countries have made it illegal for them to do so, just as the previous Afghani ruling clique made it illegal for women to work. Different cultures have different ways of doing things. Just one of the many joys of a multicultural planet, I guess.

The capitalist use of the term "force" requires the most literal of definitions.

How is it possible for rational discourse to occur if one side insists on evading the accepted definition of a commonly used word because to use it correctly would destroy their position? You can "prove" any point of view you want if you make up definitions as you go along. I don't twist definitions. Whether you agree with my points or not, you cannot deny that I speak literally and do not employ even subtle rhetorical tricks to obscure my meaning. Would that my opponents were capable of doing so.

You feel you need to make the distinction, fine, but I hardly think you've thrown out the other uses (such as by Alex and Phluck in this thread.)

Yes, I do feel the need to use words as they were meant to be used. Just because some feminazis insist on calling sex "rape" doesn't make it so. Just because Phluck insists on calling advertising "force" doesn't make it so.

Lets call a spade a spade. Factory workers in developing countries (regardless of their age) are not forced to accept offers of employment from Nike or Martha Stewart or whoever -- they are enticed to do so. What is the enticement? A standard of living higher than the one they currently enjoy. No amount of evasion and definition-twisting can conceal the fact that these people accept these jobs voluntarily, even eagerly. Or, as you yourself admit:

Anyway, what "forces" people to "choose" to take such employment must vary from one situation to the next, but it generally boils down to shitty conditions where there are little or no other options to go around.

One big cause of this is war.

Correct. That is one of the reasons options are limited for some.

The U.S. military strategy in Southeast Asia... (snip)... I don't know if the resulting mass urbanization was part of a master plan or not, but a huge population of displaced refugees do make a very available, very willing workforce.

Funny you should mention this. The Vietnamese economy is booming -- the fastest-growing economy in Asia at the moment. In the last decade the Vietnamese government has embraced the capitalist ethic to a greater degree than even China has.

The result was similar mass urbanization and similar destruction of local economies.

1) It is far easier to rebuild a farm after a war than to rebuild a city.

2) Urbanization doesn't require war. Urbanization has been occurring since pre-Roman Empire times, accelerated exponentially during the Industrial Revolution, and is arguably greater in countries which never suffered had their farmland "destroyed" in war, i.e. England, Sweden, Canada, United States, Japan, etc.

Now we might hear the response, "Oh, so it would be better for these evil corporations to stay out and let these people starve?" I'd say no...

Why would you say so? Why should the US government allow its corporations to set up production facilities in other countries when American workers are being laid off as those same corporations close American factories? Why should American corporations improve the living standards of foreigners when they won't provide jobs for every American?

...but this takes us back to the problems of child labor and other unfair practices. People are being taken complete advantage of.

How are they being taken advantage of? They are being provided better opportunities by the foreign corporations than they are by their domestic corporations (in those countries where there ARE domestic corporations). If anyone is getting screwed in this scenario, it is the domestic corporations, not the employees.

Often they are poorer than dirt, there's no raise on the horizon, they have little or no education, no means of providing one to their co-worker children, and they probably have no idea what people are talking about when they use words like "freedom" and "opportunity".

How is this the fault of the foreign corporations? If the foreign factories didn't exist, they would still be poorer than dirt, there would be no cash on the horizon, much less a raise, they would still have little or no education, no means of providing one to their co-worker children, and they would probably still have no idea what people are talking about when they use words like "freedom" and "opportunity". What's your point?

And how many of them work for mega-huge multi-national corporations?

Not as many as want to.

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (12/10/02 11:35 AM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: hongomon]
    #1128871 - 12/10/02 02:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)


I'll take that one, but first let me ask you one, pinky: Why aren't children allowed to "choose" to take similar jobs in the U.S., Canada, or a list of other nations?


First of all, let me state that I think it is immoral for a company to go to country that
is not democratic, and set up shop. Because the people who have to do the
working have no say in the political process, which means that enacting
reform is practically impossible. Which means that they will probably be taken
advantage of.


Anyway, what "forces" people to "choose" to take such employment must vary from one situation to the next, but it generally boils down to shitty conditions where there are little or no other options to go around.


When no options are around, people starve. When a company moves in and
creates jobs and economic opportunity, I don't think they should be faulted for
that. It's not like these companies are moving into vibrant areas where people
are doing great, and everything is fine, and magically overnight the corporations
ruin everything. These areas are dirt poor and the people languish in
filth and poverty. Having to work twelve hour shifts is better than starving
and being jobless in a slum. However, I will reiterate that when corporations cross
the line from providing economic opportunity to exploitation, that is wrong.


One big cause of this is war. The U.S. military strategy in Southeast Asia was to eliminate the two hiding spots of the resistance--the jungle (agent orange was used here) and villages (massive bombing and air raids were used here).


The following is a shitty truism of war; the civilian population that inhabits the
battlefield will suffer. We should have either done two things in Vietnam(which is
the war that I am assuming you are referring to). We either should have never
gotten involved, or we should have finished the job so that communism would
have never spread to the entire peninsula(if you read through some of my posts
especially in the democracy and capitalism thread, you will see why I think
communism is a mistake, why it doesn't work, and why it is oppressive to its
citizens).


U.S.-backed governments/factions/regimes in Guatemala, El Salvador, and other countries used similar tactics to battle the leftist guerillas in their own forests and villages. The result was similar mass urbanization and similar destruction of local economies.


The U.S. shouldn't have its hands in shit like this. There have been some definite
dirty dealings by the U.S. government. Although, every government that has
ever existed has had its hands in some unsavory things.


RandalFlagg


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Offlineehud
Rocket Scientist
Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 217
Loc: Middle America
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phluck]
    #1129043 - 12/10/02 03:29 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yea that bracelet thing is for idiots I dont know why anybody would buy that.  As for the Happy Meal Play doe set... well that is just plain fun I kindof wish I had one now.  Or maybe even a Big Mac with cheese.  Actualy I should go to Burger King and get a whopper the way I want it.  Or Subway and eat fresh.  mmmmm im hungry now time to consume. :tongue:


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,486
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phred]
    #1129321 - 12/10/02 04:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

If you have a corporation over seas that is allowing children to work you change that. I suppose you find those bumb fight videos harmless since these homeless people were only being enticed to do illegal things.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phred]
    #1130867 - 12/11/02 02:05 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

There are no 10 year old girls working 36 hour shifts in any corporate factories anywhere.

Any evidence or is this just the usual fantasy? Strange because I've seen women interviewed who did just this when they were 10. On a regular basis. The western factories made "no comment".

These people do so by choice -- they are not rounded up at the point of a gun and chained to their work stations.

It took millions of brave men and women fighting in the face of brutal corporate oppression to win the right to educate our children. If we had allowed your beloved corporations free reign you would never have recieved an education. You too would have been working "by your own choice". Thankfully we fought to make our "choices" different.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phred]
    #1130873 - 12/11/02 02:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

How are they being taken advantage of?

You are living in a world that is so far removed from reality that it is unimaginable.

Read more about the subject. Until you gain the slightest inkling and insight into the subject there really is no point "debating" with you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phred]
    #1131238 - 12/11/02 09:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hey there pinky, things are alright. How's the windsurfing?

So your problem is not with the fact that people in these nations choose to accept employment at what you consider to be insufficient wages, your problem is that they allow their children to do so?

I don't have trouble with either in general, but with both in many cases. The question I asked was sort of an interjection into the conversation you and Alex were having about ten-year-old children. I don't think I'm being too demanding with what I "consider to be insufficient wages," but since I'm sure this discussion could spin off in any number of directions (all of them worthwhile), I'm going to hold off on that one. I'll also just consider child exploitation for the same reason.

...(although there are plenty of pre-adolescents in farm families who work harder than many slackers I know who suck off unemployment insurance and welfare benefits)...

You have issues with the welfare system. So do I. Again, that's for another time. I'll leave it at this: those plenty of pre-adolescent farmers don't have to work sixty-hour weeks to work harder than some of the slackers I know, and I assume the same could be said about the slackers you know. I'm not against children working from a young age as a rule --but we're talking about how much work, in what kinds of conditions, and with what kinds of wages and benefits.

...the reason children are not legally allowed to accept such a job in most Western countries is that the governments of those countries have made it illegal for them to do so, just as the previous Afghani ruling clique made it illegal for women to work.

I don't like the comparison. The Taliban were Islamic fundamentalists. They were infamous for violating women's rights, not for protecting them. Their laws forbidding women from working is more akin to their laws forbidding women's skin from showing in public. Governments of western countries made those laws because it was clear to them that they were shooting themselves in the foot if they allowed so many of their poor to enter adulthood with no education. Winding spools or packing nails into boxes doesn't count.

Different cultures have different ways of doing things.

What do you mean? Those are foreign companies coming in with job offers. Where does culture play in? Do ten-year-old Brazilian goldmine workers carry 30 kg bags of rock and mud because culturally that's what Brazilian ten-year-olds do? Can the differences in child labor policy in England between 1820 and 2000 be explained as a difference in culture? No, they can't. The original conditions resulted from mass urbanization/widespread poverty. We changed those things. The bottom line is that poverty is why children must work to supplement their families income, and in plenty of countries worldwide, lack of regulation of Western corporations contributes to a vicious cycle--kids grow up as beasts of burden--they have no education but their reproductive systems work fine--their kids grow up as beasts of burden--etc.

Shit, I'm outa time. There was a lot more I wanted to reply to, but I've got to go. Thanks for your responses pinky. Always packin a punch.

hongomon


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1131490 - 12/11/02 12:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"corporations give people what they want"

People consume what corporations want us to consume. why dont we have cleaner cars and a light bulb that never burns out? what about legal marijuana and healthcare for everyone? corporations dont care about what people want they care about brainwashing you into emptying your wallet into their hands. you need this and you need that. they would take the last dollar from a homeless person.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Phred]
    #1131505 - 12/11/02 12:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

corporations represent, to me, everything that is wrong with the world and the reason why america is hated across the world. greed, arrogance, control.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Anonymous

Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: 1stimer]
    #1131622 - 12/11/02 12:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The fact that you have a computer with a net connection proves that you are using corporate inventions for your own pleasure, thus proving my point.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: Anonymous]
    #1131631 - 12/11/02 12:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

the government invented the internet, or was it al gore? i never said corporations dont do good things im saying corporations need to be strictly controlled and people should be very skeptical of corporations and their advertising. also almost every corporation is corrupt in some way.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: 1stimer]
    #1131648 - 12/11/02 01:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)


"corporations give people what they want"



People consume what corporations want us to consume.


People consume what they want to consume. Corporations just provide the
stuff. True, corporations do egg us on. But if a person is too stupid to think for
themselves, and to decide what they need and what they don't, then fuck them.


RandalFlagg


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1131652 - 12/11/02 01:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

when you are brain-washed from birth it negates free-will. just because someone is brainwashed doesnt mean they are ignorant or stupid.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: When You Say You Hate Corporate America... [Re: 1stimer]
    #1131657 - 12/11/02 01:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)


i never said corporations dont do good things im saying corporations need to be strictly controlled


Participate in the democratic process in order to help enact policies that you think
corporations should be legally bound to follow.


and people should be very skeptical of corporations and their advertising.


People should be skeptical of everything and everyone.


also almost every corporation is corrupt in some way.


That is a generalization. You are taking the actions of a few and applying it to
an entire community.


RandalFlagg



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