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 Dune
MadMan
 
Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 28
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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 Reality 
#11300091 - 10/22/09 02:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is reality subjective, objective, both or neither?
I.e. is reality different for every one, is it the same or are different aspects different for every whilst still
keeping similar aspects. If both then HOW subjective or objective is it ?
What do you guys think ?
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'you cannot tread the path before you become that path yourself' ~ Zen Saying
Who's mouth is possibly big enough to describe things as they are? ~ Alan Watts
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 DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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 Re: Reality [Re: Dune]
#11300115 - 10/22/09 02:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think reality is defined as objective. Reality is that which exists regardless, or outside of perception.
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Reality is that which exists regardless, or outside of perception.
In other words, the only real reality can never be confirmed to exist?
That's not good news. 
Seriously though, I don't really get the question. The universe exists, and this is how it looks to me. What are you actually asking about that situation?
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Reality [Re: Dune]
#11300380 - 10/22/09 03:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Reality is what we are. It is not different from anything, because it is everything. Reality is not inside us nor is it outside us, because for reality there are no sides. For reality there is only itself, and that's why it isn't realized.
Reality is the awareness of itself. It is real only to itself. As soon as we try to see ourself separated from it then we become only a thought. We may have thoughts but we never are them.
Be real, be the reality you always were.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Re: Reality [Re: Dune]
#11300638 - 10/22/09 03:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dune said:
Is reality subjective, objective, both or neither?
Reality is everything, including experiential subjective experiences.
Quote:
Dune said:
I.e. is reality different for every one...
In terms of subjective experience, yes.
Quote:
Dune said:
...is it the same or are different aspects different for every whilst still keeping similar aspects.
I don't think this, and would like to see you further explain this line of thought.
Quote:
Dune said:
If both then HOW subjective or objective is it ?
This question does not really make too much sense to me: Subjectivity/objectivity are phenomenon of qualitative value, not quantitative value.
Quote:
Dune said:
What do you guys think ?
Honestly, so far, I think it's BS. If you'd like to explain yourself further, then maybe I'll change my mind. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Dune
MadMan
Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 28
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Reality [Re: Poid]
#11301157 - 10/22/09 05:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wans't really trying to state my views, i was just trying to find out other's views. I personally believe that reality is different for every one as the only way we can experience 'reality' is through our senses, and since everybodies senses are individual and can change so readily (through the use of psychoactives) then no two people can truly experience the same thing.
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'you cannot tread the path before you become that path yourself' ~ Zen Saying
Who's mouth is possibly big enough to describe things as they are? ~ Alan Watts
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Reality [Re: Dune]
#11301228 - 10/22/09 05:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dune said:
I wans't really trying to state my views, i was just trying to find out other's views.
So you weren't trying to debate in a debate-oriented forum? 
Quote:
Dune said:
I personally believe that reality is different for every one as the only way we can experience 'reality' is through our senses...
I think this is an obvious truth, that subjective reality is different for everyone.
Quote:
Dune said:
....and since everybodies senses are individual and can change so readily (through the use of psychoactives) then no two people can truly experience the same thing.
It almost seems like you had a point here! 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
laserpig said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Reality is that which exists regardless, or outside of perception.
In other words, the only real reality can never be confirmed to exist?
That's not good news.
Its not? Im not sure about it never being confirmed... In my book very high percentages of likelihood are sufficient to being confirmed.
Regardless, I cant think of any better word to describe that which exists outside of perception (whether or not it actually exists). If its not reality then what is it?
Edited by DieCommie (10/22/09 09:16 PM)
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Dune]
#11304424 - 10/23/09 04:28 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dune said:
Is reality subjective, objective, both or neither?
I.e. is reality different for every one, is it the same or are different aspects different for every whilst still
keeping similar aspects. If both then HOW subjective or objective is it ?
What do you guys think ?
For something to be really termed 'Reality' it must be relaible, consistent & permanent
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
Quote:
Dune said:
Is reality subjective, objective, both or neither?
I.e. is reality different for every one, is it the same or are different aspects different for every whilst still
keeping similar aspects. If both then HOW subjective or objective is it ?
What do you guys think ?
For something to be really termed 'Reality' it must be relaible, consistent & permanent
Why?
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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How else can it be called Reality unless it is permanent?
If a temporary object apepars & you take it to be real, when the object dis-appears, then along with it goes its reality
Of course you can make relative arguments, but those arguements are just as fleeting & unreal, as is this one im making now
All of it eventually goes 'poof!'
Whatever goes 'poof!' is unreal
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Xeny
Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 387
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
How else can it be called Reality unless it is permanent?
If a temporary object apepars & you take it to be real, when the object dis-appears, then along with it goes its reality
So reality doesn't exist, nothing is real?
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Ik hou van je
While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John
Edited by Xeny (10/23/09 05:29 AM)
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Reality *DELETED* [Re: Chronic7]
#11304517 - 10/23/09 06:00 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Reality is Awareness
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Kukaracha
Cat wannabe
Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1,682
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Re: Reality [Re: Dune]
#11305432 - 10/23/09 10:51 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think reality is objective.
It's the belief that you and similar beings are living in the same wordl; it implies that you live similar experiences.
In the absolute, reality is a belief, but I don't think you can say that it's "subjective to everyone", or else it would mean that similar beings exist around you but they live in different worlds (how do you know there are different beings if you don't share anything?).
It wouldn't be solipsism as you think that you're not alone, but it wouldn't be the common definition of reality as you have nothing in common with other beings.
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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How can there be a person to whom reality is permanent?
Does this person stand outside of reality, so that he/she can look upon it as permanent or impermanent?
Doesn't that imply that the person is an imagined entity?
To whom does reality appear?
If reality is all, who could perceive it as being separate from him-/herself?
I wonder.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11305828 - 10/23/09 12:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said:
To whom does reality appear?
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Band of Gypsys
Stranger
Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains on the Moon
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Reality appears to the observer.
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S o m e T e x t
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Who is the observer?
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Isn't the observer that very same reality?
If so, isn't the observance not an illusion of reality?
If not, is the observer separate from reality, and therefore unreal?
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11305912 - 10/23/09 12:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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'Reality appears to the observer'
To understand reality one must understand the observer, as all things we consider real depend on the observation of them to say they are real, so to know the nature of the observer (Awareness) is to understand what Reality truly is
Reality must have the attribute of being eternal, otherwise it is not reality, its an appearance & nothing more
Only a temporary mind can take something temporary to be Reality
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Isn't the observer real? Is the observer separated from reality? Isn't the observer reality itself?
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11305974 - 10/23/09 12:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The observer (Awareness) is self evident, things other than the observer depend on the observer to say they exist
So Awareness is Reality itself, without Awareness no appearance could arise to even then say the appearance is real, so to know the reality of any appearance, the nature of the Awareness which sees the appearance must be understood
What good is knowing objects, no matter how many, if one does not know his own Awareness?
Knowing innumerable objects, whatever they are, is not wisdom.
Knowing the nature of ones own Self, Awareness, is the only wisdom that really exists.
What good isit to know about an object which passes?
What good isit to know the abiding reality which can not pass?
Which one will bring true satisfaction?
The eternal or the temporary?
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Edited by Chronic7 (10/23/09 12:55 PM)
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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So you are saying reality is self is awareness.
So the one who knows his/her own awareness, is in fact nothing else but awareness.
If not then there is someone who knows awareness as being separate from him-/herself.
And that would mean that there is something else than awareness, else than self, else than reality.
Now tell me, if there is no-one separated from awareness how can there be the knowledge of awareness? Who knows and acknowledges this awareness? Isn't awareness just itself? Aren't we that awareness? Who could recognise awareness if awareness is all there is?
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Band of Gypsys
Stranger
Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains on the Moon
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
The observer (Awareness) is self evident, things other than the observer depend on the observer to say they exist
So Awareness is Reality itself, without Awareness no appearance could arise to even then say the appearance is real, so to know the reality of any appearance, the nature of the Awareness which sees the appearance must be understood
What good is knowing objects, no matter how many, if one does not know his own Awareness?
Knowing innumerable objects, whatever they are, is not wisdom.
Knowing the nature of ones own Self, Awareness, is the only wisdom that really exists.
What good isit to know about an object which passes?
What good isit to know the abiding reality which can not pass?
Which one will bring true satisfaction?
The eternal or the temporary?
I think that the "reality" we experience may not be real. As Chronic said awareness is real, but what you are experiencing may not be real. In a dream you are aware of things that are not "real" in another reality, but the awareness remains constant. 
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Where does your awareness go when you die?
Dead people have no awareness.
Why would awareness be any different than a dream?
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306197 - 10/23/09 01:22 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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What i'm trying to say is that when the mind stops labeling everything, then reality is only itself.
Ofcourse our mind clings to its own creation. So too with the label 'reality'.
That's where it gets confused and tries to hold on to 'reality'. By that time it has separated itself from its creation, and reality becomes an illusion.
Or awareness, or self, or whatever.... i think.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306218 - 10/23/09 01:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said:
Who could recognise awareness if awareness is all there is?
Awareness is self aware through consciousness, this is how (although nondualistic) it is knowable, through its first reflection, consciousness
The final final final step is to abandon knowing yourself through consciousness & dissolve into the single nondual ocean of Awareness, this happens in deep sleep, fainting, or at death.
That is what is reffered to as mahaparinirvana, or videhamukti, liberation at bodily death. The reflected consciousness ceases.
It is possible to attain Nirvana or Jivanmukti through consciousness, while still embodied
Basically you can be liberated (return to nondual existence) at death (mahanirvana/vidhamukti) or you can do it while still alive (nirvana/jivanmukti)
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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How could awareness be self-aware? It is not separated from itself.
Consciousness is the expression of awareness through form in that case.
Who is there to abandon self-knowledge? Self-knowledge is a projection of consciousness within the mind. There is no self to abandon since the self is a creation of the mind, and so is reality and awareness and all the rest of it.
But to be able to address these issues the mind creates terms like reality, self, awareness, ...
Really, could i understand being anything else than what the mind labels?
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306354 - 10/23/09 01:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said:
Really, could i understand being anything else than what the mind labels?
You Are
You need not go any further than that
Don't apply any label, it will only peel off after a while
You Are
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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I am?
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306431 - 10/23/09 02:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why would you put a quesiton mark after that statement!?
If you know anything you know
I AM!
'I Am' is the entire universe...
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,428
Loc: clarity 
Last seen: 46 minutes, 50 seconds
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there is no i to be!
it's just am
the dreamer is dreamt by the dream itself (and not the other way around)
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: deff]
#11306479 - 10/23/09 02:09 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
there is no i to be!
it's just am
the dreamer is dreamt by the dream itself (and not the other way around)
I would say there is just 'I' and no 'am' 
But we're saying the same thing...
The 'am-ness' is assumed, when investigated it falls away, the skin sheds, the dream ends, and pure 'I' shines...
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,428
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 46 minutes, 50 seconds
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hehe... same thing indeed! 
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Strange, but to me the 'i am' doesn't fit the bill. It's like making me something else than what i am.
Saying 'i am' is limiting reality to something else than reality. Since reality is itself, any addressing of it with other terms creates a duality. In this case between the 'i' and the 'am'.
Someone could come along and say 'i'm not' ... now tell me who would be telling the truth.
No, sorry but 'i am' doesn't do it for me. It's way too limiting to what i am...
EDIT: Having read both your posts i wish to add that the terms 'i' and 'am' and such are creating a separation between reality and a projection of it in the mind. I am not separated from reality. It is a habit to adhere to the notion 'i' and 'am' as ideas of the mind. But in reality these term only create a duality between what they stand for and the reality within which they were created.
I am this reality which is itself and cannot be reduced to 'i am' or 'i' or 'am'. Reality is itself. Any notion, including 'reality', creates the illusion of a separation of things. There is no separation in what is real.
Edited by Ahimsa (10/23/09 02:21 PM)
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306545 - 10/23/09 02:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is truly ridiculous
It goes to show the total neorosis of the mind, to say 'I Am' is not enough
Its only because you limit 'I Am' to your particular body, you feel it is not enough...
Thats the biggest obstacle in meditation summed up
'I Am' is not enough...
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306573 - 10/23/09 02:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said:
There is no separation in what is real.
I agree, but we are using words here buddy, words usually refer to separate things...
Even the word universe, implies a person who is separate from the universe to say the word universe, which of course is ridiculous because the universe is saying t he word universe, no separation.
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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'I am' is only an idea. Why would you reduce yourself to anything less than he reality that you are.
Even though your 'i am' may include the whole of time and space and beyond, it still is an illusion of what you are. Any labeling is a reduction making you something else than what you are.
You are not i am. Neither am i.
You are much much more then 'i am'.
You are also 'i'm not' for example...
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Quote:
we are using words here
Exactly, we are using words. Now words have this peculiar tendency of claiming to be what they stand for. It is not the words that do this, but the mind that focusses itself on them.
When the mind adheres to words it creates separate images. We then, being the reality that we are, take these images, no matter how profound (even nirvana or such), to be real. And there is the schism between what is real and imagined.
See, whatever notion you attach to 'i am', even the experience of nirvana or enlightenment, is a reduction of reality, it is if you please a super-illusion.
Look, our mind is real, it is the function of our brain 'to mind', but we can, or should, never be reduced to its imagines.
Edited by Ahimsa (10/23/09 02:36 PM)
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306668 - 10/23/09 02:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I agree totally with what you saying about separation, any concept is to mentally divorce from - That Which Is, Reality
Then you say...
Quote:
Ahimsa said:
Look, our mind is real.
No, it is certainly not
Theres is nothing more unreal than the mind
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Isn't our mind a function of the brain?
To me our mind is real in the same way that our brain is real.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306742 - 10/23/09 02:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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It is real in the same way the brain is real...
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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I am? 
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ssalinas1982
Up and Coming
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 31
Loc: Somewhere In Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
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Re: Reality [Re: Ahimsa]
#11306815 - 10/23/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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There are some very good points out there. However I would like to add that reality is only how you perceive it. It has something to do with the past, present, and future, but the moment is where reality is at. If you think about it past, present and future and how it relates with reality, then you might be able to grasp a different sense of reality. Reality is only a moment, once that moment passes, it becomes the past and even if you think about the future, once you get there it becomes the present then the past. It goes over and over again, so does reality exist?
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Idiologically advanced, Mentally impaired, psychologically unstable.
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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So you are saying that reality is this very moment, all the time? That's cool... 
Edited by Ahimsa (10/23/09 03:18 PM)
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