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Individualism is bolderdash
    #11289570 - 10/21/09 02:49 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Collectivism is preferable to individualism. Loneliness is the worst thing in the world. American capitalism exploits human isolation by filling the void caused by isolation with useless trinkets for people to buy... new gadgets yearly.

Collectivist philosophies/institutions include:
-communism/socialism
-mormonism
-911 truth movement
-friendship

America is the most evil thing to ever come about because it is based on individualism.


Edited by lines (10/21/09 02:51 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11289715 - 10/21/09 03:20 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

We're all individualists, and have a "circle" of people who we identify with. This makes us think that we're experiencing collectivism as a better reality. If only everyone was like ME/US, we could all be the same/prosperous!

Everyone experiences collective and individual thought, but regardless of the system, you still end up with a set of rulers who think "If only everyone was like us..."

America isn't really part of the equation. Humanity = attempt to profit at the expense of others if necessary. All that's needed is the means. Capitalism is the diversion of a percentage of human power from the government, to those who can. I'd hate to put all those eggs in one basket. Either basket. Get too idealistic and war is the future cause you'll be fighting the human spirit. History of humanity. Of course, there's all kinds of examples of natural decline, but everything else is very much "our bad".

It's not so much the principals themselves (on either side), but the ability of persons to find ways to circumvent them. Sure, collectivism sounds great. But how will you insure that your leaders play nice, when you give them all the power? Because without some actual power base outside the collective pyramid, there is nothing to stop the top from exerting all it's weight on the bottom.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: Rahz]
    #11289756 - 10/21/09 03:30 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

In socialist societies where doctors are paid fixed salaries there isnt an excessive druging of the population as there is in america which is due to doctors being paid based on how many people they drug.

Power is concentrated into a few hands always and tha is the way with capitalist societies as it is with socialist ones. Ameica is ruled by a corporate oligarchy.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11289849 - 10/21/09 03:54 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

While the opposite shows all signs of spending the same amount of money, and failing to give the consumer liberty in the matter. Idealism in any vein is mostly a means of forcing people into the path of least resistance. And it's those with power who are guiding the flock. I don't think for a second that a Communist behind a desk is any different than an executive behind a desk.

Communism could work... Capitalism could work. I don't care to get into specifics. That debate could go on forever, and is more suited for political discussion.

Again, how will you insure the leaders play nice when you give them all the power? Neither capitalism nor communism represents the balance. An excess of either spells eventual revolution. A majority may now cry for collectivism. Tommorrow they will cry for individualsim... all the while practicing both within their means.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: Rahz]
    #11290082 - 10/21/09 05:03 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

One is better than the other just as food is better than poison


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11290093 - 10/21/09 05:05 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yea, it's like Good vs Evil!


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11290593 - 10/21/09 09:56 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lines said:
In socialist societies where doctors are paid fixed salaries there isnt an excessive druging of the population as there is in america which is due to doctors being paid based on how many people they drug.




No. That is not how doctors are paid.


--------------------


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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11290943 - 10/21/09 11:57 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Collectivism is preferable to individualism.


I usually prefer being alone. :shrug:



Quote:

lines said:
Loneliness is the worst thing in the world.


:lol:, are you using this subjective opinion as evidence for your above assertion? :haha:



Quote:

lines said:
American capitalism exploits human isolation by filling the void caused by isolation with useless trinkets for people to buy... new gadgets yearly.


So fucking what? Hedonism, FTW! :cheers:



Quote:

lines said:
Collectivist philosophies/institutions include:
-communism/socialism
-mormonism
-911 truth movement
-friendship


Why is the "911 truth movement" any more or less of a collectivist philosophy than any other movement? Is there a specific reason you just mentioned the 911 "truth movement"? :confused:

You support Mormonism? :snub:



Quote:

lines said:
America is the most evil thing to ever come about because it is based on individualism.


WTF does "evil", IYO, even mean? :what:

I think individualism is extremely awesome, fuck people. :thebird:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11291411 - 10/21/09 01:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Collectivism is preferable to individualism. Loneliness is the worst thing in the world. American capitalism exploits human isolation by filling the void caused by isolation with useless trinkets for people to buy... new gadgets yearly.

Collectivist philosophies/institutions include:
-communism/socialism
-mormonism
-911 truth movement
-friendship

America is the most evil thing to ever come about because it is based on individualism.




:rofl2:

Agenda's anyone.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: Icelander]
    #11291518 - 10/21/09 01:55 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Collectivist philosophy = :sheepie:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: Poid]
    #11291523 - 10/21/09 01:56 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

fuckin commies:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11291533 - 10/21/09 01:57 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Collectivist philosophies/institutions include:
-communism/socialism
-mormonism
-911 truth movement
-friendship






Wow, I dont want any of those things.  :thumbdown:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: DieCommie]
    #11291542 - 10/21/09 01:58 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
fuckin commies:satansmoking:


I wanna be Stalin when I grow up...:evil:



Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

lines said:
Collectivist philosophies/institutions include:
-communism/socialism
-mormonism
-911 truth movement
-friendship






Wow, I dont want any of those things.  :thumbdown:


Not even friendship? :sad:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11291579 - 10/21/09 02:05 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

It's like this:  Too much individualism leads to a selfish, narcissistic society that doesn't take care of others.  Too much collectivism leads to the idea that people merely means to an end, and no individual matters.  What you really need is a balance between the two, in which a harmonious whole is created without sacrificing the dignity of the individual.

BTW, I would love to see you tell Alex Jones that he's a collectivist. :lol:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: Silversoul]
    #11291587 - 10/21/09 02:07 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Very buddhist dood. (middlepath):thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: Silversoul]
    #11291592 - 10/21/09 02:08 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Too much individualism leads to a selfish, narcissistic society that doesn't take care of others.


Not necessarily...:strokebeard:


Quote:

Silversoul said:
Too much collectivism leads to the idea that people merely means to an end, and no individual matters.


I'll bear with you on this one. :pedobear:


Quote:

Silversoul said:
What you really need is a balance between the two, in which a harmonious whole is created without sacrificing the dignity of the individual.



It's like I always say: equilibrium, baby, it never fails to succeed, nor does it ever succeed in failure! :cheers:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: lines]
    #11292268 - 10/21/09 03:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Collectivism is preferable to individualism.




For you. And luckily this doesn't mean shit to the rest of the world.

Quote:

Loneliness is the worst thing in the world.




For someone who can't live with oneself and doesn't have any personality or intelligence to keep oneself happy and curious about the experience of life, maybe.
However, there are people the prefer to be alone or just with a couple of people they're really close to.
I hope you realize how childish and foolish it sounds to say that something, anything, "is the worst thing in the world". :lol:

Quote:

American capitalism exploits human isolation by filling the void caused by isolation with useless trinkets for people to buy... new gadgets yearly.




Please explain how this happens and provide actual data to sustain the claim.

Quote:

Collectivist philosophies/institutions include:
-communism/socialism
-mormonism
-911 truth movement
-friendship




One more reason to wipe my ass with them. :laugh:

Quote:

America is the most evil thing to ever come about because it is based on individualism.




Booo. :bitch:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11292572 - 10/21/09 04:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Collectivist philosophies/institutions include:
-communism/socialism
-mormonism
-911 truth movement
-friendship




One more reason to wipe my ass with them. :laugh:


Using a bidet would be much wiser, from a health perspective. :sadyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11292573 - 10/21/09 04:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Collectivism is preferable to individualism. Loneliness is the worst thing in the world. American capitalism exploits human isolation by filling the void caused by isolation with useless trinkets for people to buy... new gadgets yearly.




Tickets...tickets...we've supplanted the trust, reliance and feeling we would normally have for the TRIBE and replaced it with little tickets we call money.  In Prometheus Rising Robert Anton Wilson touches on this...think of it this way, imaging how you would feel if every source of income you had was suddenly taken away from you, your bank accounts closed, relatives won't lend you money, no job...that feeling of panic and ennui is about the same way an ancient tribes-man would have felt being banished...even up to Shakespeare's time, "Banish'd, the damned use that word in hell" cries Romeo...

Quote:

Collectivist philosophies/institutions include:
-communism/socialism




Which, while on paper is great...in practice it simply doesn't work, it does the opposite of capitalism, rather than forcing individual dependence on tickets we call money, they try to replace the "tribe" with the "state", if course in order to keep organization this leads to horrific red tape and fear from those trying to keep up with the increasingly incomprehensible bureaucracy at messing up and losing their "tribe" support.  In short, communism is a cure that seems almost worse than the disease.

Quote:

-mormonism




No comment...if part of collectivism requires me to believe in a dude reading tablets from a hat, I'll pass.

Quote:

-911 truth movement




I think that covers pretty much everyone...I've never seen a "911 untruth movement" before...

Quote:

-friendship




Ah, therein lies the key...that one point right there is where we agree, this is because it's a LIMITED collectivism, much like us...those of us who use psychedelics are sort of a sub-group of a sub-group.  Most prefer predictable drugs, opiates, pot, amphetamines etc...within the underground drug movement there's an UNDER-underground psychonaut movement.  Friendship is the same, it's collective, but not supremely so, it's collectivism tempered by individualism, which is just perfect for me.

Quote:

America is the most evil thing to ever come about because it is based on individualism.




Now you're throwing "evil" in there?  That's a tricky word for this sort of debate...whether individualism is effective, ineffective, safe, dangerous...that doesn't make it evil or good, it simply is...it's a system.  It's no more "evil" or "good" than gravity

Quote:

In socialist societies where doctors are paid fixed salaries there isnt an excessive druging of the population as there is in america which is due to doctors being paid based on how many people they drug.




Don't you think that's sort of putting a band-aid on the problem?  If we're talking about greed, why don't we deal with the companies making these drugs and the docs dispensing them rather than completely change the entire core of our social order?  I'm in Canada and we get a damn LOT of drugs, I can go out right now and get 4 or 5 scripts for Benzo's and Opiates of virtually any type I want.  I can even TELL my doctor "I'd like Lorazepam rather than Clonazepam please" and it's in my hand...we're socialist medically as well, the only difference doesn't seem to be the per-capita use of the drugs, but the docs simply prescribing all generics, I NEVER get Klonopin or Valium, I get Lorazepam or Clonazepam generics.  Either way, dealing with the system without trying to fix the underlying problem (greed in this case) is no better than what many psychiatrists do..."oh, you're depressed, let's try this med" rather than actually dealing with the source of the depression (assuming it's not neurological)

Quote:

Power is concentrated into a few hands always and tha is the way with capitalist societies as it is with socialist ones. Ameica is ruled by a corporate oligarchy.




Unfortunately that's part of human nature, we're classed beings, Alpha males will ALWAYS be alpha males, it doesn't matter if it means they just get the best food and get to mate with all the women or if they're in the president's chair, it's still basic alpha behavior.  Like I said, Communism is nice on paper, but when it's been tried out the same shit went down, Stalin offed ol' Trotsky and then THAT alpha male took control of the state.  Either extreme is treacherous.

Quote:

One is better than the other just as food is better than poison




You've yet to really show how though...you've said ones better, but historically the societies you're describing don't turn out the way they were initially intended...


--------------------
*+_Charos_+*

"Be me, for a little while"
--Eli

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Re: Individualism is bolderdash [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11292585 - 10/21/09 04:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Damn, this thread got torn 3 new goatse-sized assholes. :glittershitz:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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