Home | Community | Message Board


Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Slavery
    #11286854 - 10/20/09 09:32 PM (8 years, 14 minutes ago)

So, OC mentioned the Arab and African slave trades were way more ridiculous than that of the European's. So I looked into it and apparently yeah, for example the Arab one lasted basically from 650-1960 (yeah like over a thousand years ago to about 50). While it doesn't dismiss the Europeans, I wonder why when we talk about slavery, we only talk about that of the Europeans. Or that when we learn about slavery in school, even by the most 'liberal' teachers, they don't mention that slavery was already very common in Africa.

Slavery seems to be treated as some spawn of satan that was born out of Anglo-Saxons.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
You are under arrest!
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 44,512
Loc: Urban Jungle
Re: Slavery [Re: learningtofly]
    #11286909 - 10/20/09 09:39 PM (8 years, 7 minutes ago)

Even moreso, few talk about how only like 3% of early European Americans were slave-holders. The other 97% are somehow guilty by association which is what anti-racists rail about - except when it suits them.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Slavery [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11288177 - 10/20/09 11:45 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I would say the concern with this string of issues is probably not the basic loss/tragedy of human life, or even statistically great numbers for that matter. This is just the ideal "anchor point" for discussion.

First of all, nobody actually cares about anybody who died before 1900. That's a natural indifference, because they would be dead today anyway the story went. Our care which may be piqued by films, representations, or (least significantly) histories of these pastimes - is ideal, and only subsequently relevant to us.

Consider this sacred human right as it ostensibly raises these issues for us to discuss. To derive the human right, we must ideally project ourselves out to form a social contract. Once the society begins to function upon this faith, it can naturally only project back to/for the individual (as social discourse) in the same ideal manner...

There is always going to be an explicit disjuncture between individual and society. In this backward and forward "communication" we are not systematically forging a solid chain of empathetic feeling. We are translating "you and I" into the ideal individual, which then may be addressed by "you and I" and the state. This is the brute face of the "subject" that reveals the ideological or authoritarian nature of many philosophies.

But getting to the point, the Social discourse that projects back to us from society (The ideal/empty individual) only makes itself relevant heterogeneously, because the individual itself is not actually a talking point. Thus established, the "media", speaks to us "culturally". So in social discourse, the reasons these questions are basically raised, you might say has nothing to do with human rights anymore, even though this ultimately anchors our discourse. We are not so interested in freedom, when we would rather have "it".


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Slavery [Re: daytripper23]
    #11288519 - 10/21/09 12:21 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

What does any of that have to do with us talking about the European slave trade as if it were some idiosyncratic thing from hell that no one else ever did?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,007
Re: Slavery [Re: learningtofly]
    #11288617 - 10/21/09 12:31 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Or that when we learn about slavery in school, even by the most 'liberal' teachers, they don't mention that slavery was already very common in Africa.




Because the most 'liberal' teachers are racist against whites and they just spread the party line of white guilt.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Slavery [Re: learningtofly]
    #11289059 - 10/21/09 01:26 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Oh so I had assumed too much that there is a positive notion of humanism driving your question? Even when you are just pointing fingers, I assumed that's at least what you were implying.

"We" in that extraordinary sense (even so negatively implied), apparently only have access to are the cross hairs of heterogeneity projected upon the medium. As described, that's how social discourse can only recur upon us. The individual being, or "humanism", on the other hand, is like a pixel on the screen.

But this is the question as you choose to raise it. Somewhere along the line there is usually the practical but mistaken assumption that these projections are as deep as the pixels on the screen. That's what I figured you were assuming, otherwise, I don't know what you could possibly be trying to prove/accomplish... To further polarize race relations?

I agree that our situation is silly, but I also don't think you can posit your way out from being on the screen. That's why I think the frame of your question is the problem more than its possible answers. That's what I was addressing.

My opinion is that we need to get under even the pixels of humanism to address something more primordial than identity, let alone that identity's social constructions.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (10/21/09 01:59 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Slavery [Re: daytripper23]
    #11289320 - 10/21/09 02:06 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Oh and btw, this was also meant to address your post in the recent Native American thread too, I forgot to mention that. You said something like "what make's Native americans slaughter any different than Europeans slaughtering themselves?" I was just getting a chance to respond to it, so I figured I'd do both here, since they're pretty similar questions.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Slavery [Re: daytripper23]
    #11290586 - 10/21/09 09:52 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, yah, I said what makes the slaughter of native americans/taking over the america's any different than the expansion of any European empire


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Slavery [Re: learningtofly]
    #11292899 - 10/21/09 05:27 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Right. My point was that our social discourse typically doesn't actually address our individual or human freedom. This is something already established; something only "seen" as the "sensational", which is the contrast brought by heterogeneous groups/teams/cultures.

That is, when the terminology of freedom comes up, as it does, we are not typically addressing a humanism, or a philosophy of being; but concerning ourselves with why an established philosophy (a terminology, or set of rules) has been violated.

It's like a game of chess. We play by the rules, but can address the rules as they are contrasted by the white and black pieces on the board. Usually we just follow the rules, even if the game is set up this way as inherently violent.

So with the Native Americans and Europeans, human rights come into "view", in the strict contrast of territory (America) and culture (as OC previously pointed out). But is it therein possible to address the underlying philosophy? To object tot the rules established. Further is this incipient game the only way to do this today?

1. Can we see the clash of heterogeneous groups as an opportunity to address an underlying philosophy?

Obviously, there is much to get "caught up in" with what ideals are already established, and I agree that offering overdrawn concessions, or general apologetics is ridiculous. But does that mean "we" (as our basic and only structure of coexistence) should overlook an opportunity to address our underlying philosophy; possibly our only opportunity, by deeming these situations as merely sensational?

I don't agree with the idea of just turning ones back on the cultural situation, however ridiculous it may be. Of course it can be hypnotizing, but the blunt consensus that we should blame "the medium" is just fleeing from our situation (like so many around here say, throw your television down the stairs).

In other words, it is embarrassing that Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan are the faces of the 21st century, as THE sensational - But just as sensational as we can collectively understand terrorism, or just as sensational as history paints white peoples' relations to the rest of the world (the only history we know).  It's all sensational, from the ridiculous to atrocious. No where in between is a reason to turn off the news though.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: Slavery [Re: daytripper23]
    #11302001 - 10/22/09 09:16 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

slavery has always been a part of humanity, its how we get things done.
Nowadays we have slaves but they are free to go at any time... if they want to be poor. You see, people are free within society, but there is a price to pay for that freedom.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleChespirito
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
Re: Slavery [Re: DieCommie]
    #11302052 - 10/22/09 09:23 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Or that when we learn about slavery in school, even by the most 'liberal' teachers, they don't mention that slavery was already very common in Africa.




Because the most 'liberal' teachers are racist against whites and they just spread the party line of white guilt.



Such a standard meme.  I learned about various slave trades besides the European one, where did you gentlemen go to school?  Hell I went to school in LA, doesn't get too much more liberal except if you're in San Francisco


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Slavery [Re: Chespirito]
    #11302553 - 10/22/09 10:41 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

My history teacher had no qualms about telling us about her political philosophy which was that of a hardcore liberal. I don't care, i have value some of the same things but her white guilt was sooo ridiculous. Our history textbook was Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States.

It failed to mention that whites bought slaves, and made it seem like they went out in the middle of the night and captured them. I'm saying that it excuses slavery but it paints a much different picture


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleChespirito
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
Re: Slavery [Re: learningtofly]
    #11302621 - 10/22/09 10:50 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

You had that book in middle school or high school?  That seems unlikely


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Slavery [Re: Chespirito]
    #11302663 - 10/22/09 10:57 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

High school.

Edit: I should clarify, it wasn't technically our textbook but literally 95% of our reading was from that book.


--------------------


Edited by learningtofly (10/22/09 10:57 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleChespirito
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
Re: Slavery [Re: learningtofly]
    #11302827 - 10/22/09 11:18 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Well to get back to the issue at hand, throughout your school career did you never learn about other slave trades besides the European one?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Slavery [Re: Chespirito]
    #11302918 - 10/22/09 11:32 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Only briefly in one class. My american govt teacher mentioned the african one in reference to how the european one got started, and when i mentioned it to my liberal-ass history teacher, she flipped out and practically denied it.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Slavery [Re: DieCommie]
    #11302938 - 10/22/09 11:35 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Or that when we learn about slavery in school, even by the most 'liberal' teachers, they don't mention that slavery was already very common in Africa.




Because the most 'liberal' teachers are racist against whites and they just spread the party line of white guilt.



Do you really think they're hiding this stuff from the students, or is it more likely that they don't know about it themselves?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Slavery [Re: Silversoul]
    #11302949 - 10/22/09 11:37 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

A combination.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Slavery [Re: learningtofly]
    #11303116 - 10/23/09 12:00 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I've only taken basic history courses, in which I don't recall ever seriously devoting time to slavery around the world. Although it was certainly mentioned and studied, it was not such a focus that it became an "issue", as it is here. In these classes, we did not address American or white slavery in a relatively undue focus.

When slavery was a focus and presented as a relevant issue, I recall it was in American history classes. That is white on black slavery - but it is also an American history, not Arabian. We even studied the roots of American slave trade, such as the British market, but that is still a white on black slavery.

So, coming from my experience with history in the classroom, I am wondering how many of you are mistaking an "American" context as such, for this world-biased context? Any of you have any contrary experiences?

Another point; how is the apex of "exploitation" in the European slave trade (as negative focus), very different from the apex of "civilization" (positive) that comes into the terms of Roman, Greek, and western European enlightenment? In other words, it seems to me that we are basically self centered.

Maybe you are expecting an "exactness" towards historical studies, when all we can really come by is a specific rigor. As described so far, I think that what many of you are calling a liberal "bias", is just a fluid understanding of context. Its pretty difficult to actually claim that as a bias.

From what I have heard, most claims that open academics have a liberal slant is sorely lacking elaboration. First, what authority is being appealed to? In most cases, nobody mentions any extra-academic authorities along the lines of say, Nietzsche, or any thinker who seems to actually make a convincing case. The reference to a bias is almost always derived from the lumbering elephants of economy, war-games...etc - "Thinkers" like say, Glenn Beck.

Sure, its easy to make polarizing remarks that appear to be radical...and maybe, there is something buried under these vague heaps of slander. But it's not like many of these people are actually trying to dig this out though.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (10/23/09 12:53 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* the individual Lenore 1,487 12 12/17/01 06:13 PM
by Ulysees
* Slavery SkeptikosXL 622 12 03/14/10 01:23 AM
by Foamy
* Democracy =! Slavery
( 1 2 all )
Octavius 2,981 31 04/08/06 11:10 PM
by blaze2
* Individualism is bolderdash lines 717 19 10/21/09 04:33 PM
by Poid
* The Myth of Freedom and Individuality the_phoenix 929 1 12/13/04 04:50 PM
by Mrbadguy
* Native American Church: An Anthropologist's Experience with Peyote Ritual shroomydan 2,054 1 03/26/06 07:34 AM
by redgreenvines
* Whats to love about Americans?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
gettinjiggywithit 4,532 80 10/01/06 11:38 AM
by Huehuecoyotl
* Anarchy, Freedom, & the Quest for the Self VS. Government, Slavery and Fear. Clean 1,104 2 09/22/07 05:41 AM
by stellar renegade

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
1,160 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Zamnesia.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.041 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 19 queries.