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Offlinecalavera
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Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich?
    #11275640 - 10/19/09 06:25 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Hello

I was surprised to find out that Mr.Stamets puts small portions from the dedicated bulk substrate, into his Lc's so mycelia will remember that substrate, and knows what enzymes he needs to digest it. so it will colonize faster the bulk. It was some months ago i've read this in his book, but this idea stick in my head.

What if...?

We get weakened viruses in vaccines, so our immune system will remember, and fight diseases faster, and more effective. So
what if one would give weakened trich to the mycelia to fight it and win so it will remember to recognize the threat, and how to fight it back.

Is this complete bullshit? :smile:


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Offlinesolumvita
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: calavera]
    #11275666 - 10/19/09 06:45 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Interesting thought, I have no idea if it would work but it sounds like an idea that if it works would be excellent.

How would you weaken the trichoderma mycelium though?


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Offlinecalavera
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: solumvita]
    #11275705 - 10/19/09 07:27 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

I dont know, maybe with ph lowering maybe with heat, or just let it age.

Or if only small amount of trich would introduced to lets say a fully colonized petri dish, myceluim could overrun without having the trich weakended prior.


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Offlinedstark
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: calavera]
    #11275938 - 10/19/09 09:44 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

I dont really think myc. has immune system that can actually "remember" diseases like in human body.But can be a nice experiment =]


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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: dstark]
    #11276043 - 10/19/09 10:23 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Good point. Also I'd say mold is neither a virus nor any other type of disease, that lives inside another organism. For example trich coils around the hyphae, simply digesting them. There won't be a vaccine against competitors, parasites or predators.

There have been studies about adding trich enzymes to mushroom mycelium, so it might get prepared to a coming attack. But it still wouldn't get resistant this way.

Carsten


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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: Mycelio]
    #11276469 - 10/19/09 12:41 PM (8 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Mycelio said:
Good point. Also I'd say mold is neither a virus nor any other type of disease, that lives inside another organism. For example trich coils around the hyphae, simply digesting them. There won't be a vaccine against competitors, parasites or predators.

There have been studies about adding trich enzymes to mushroom mycelium, so it might get prepared to a coming attack. But it still wouldn't get resistant this way.

Carsten



Yup! if we have a kinds of parasites in our body or something with use antibiotic - and that not ours immune system does.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: dstark]
    #11276957 - 10/19/09 02:15 PM (8 years, 3 days ago)

Sounds like a long shot to me.  But there are certainly examples of this in the plant kingdom.

Why not sterilize some trich and add it to the mix?  You never know what might happen.


-FF


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Offlinecalavera
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: fastfred]
    #11277359 - 10/19/09 03:18 PM (8 years, 3 days ago)

yes i know its not very wise to pull paralell ideas with warm blooded immune system and fungi, and thats not the point i want to make, i used this example only as a referation.

if fungi have a memory to store different compounds they encounter, and
they even store the type of enzymes it was digested with (and Stamets says this is true), than i think it logical that if a fungi ever encountered any competitor, that it fought back, and destroyed with succes, with its enzymes, than the next time this will happen it will recognize and develops needed enzymes faster.

And i think this is the habbit of many forms of DNA spreading on our earth, wich we can see many examples from many different aspects, from ants, to human logic, And form monthy phyton as well. Adopt Adapt and Improve:D

Another idea of mine to grow trich free mushrooms, is to decide to grow trich from now on, and try to keep the bloody oyters out the growroom, Douglas Adams way.

Peace


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: fastfred]
    #11278109 - 10/19/09 05:24 PM (8 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Why not sterilize some trich and add it to the mix?  You never know what might happen


That seems to make sense. I have heard of people planning on growing in LCs of the final grain they are going to use. So it gets used to the substrate as mentioned. Well if it is used to growing on sterile trich then when it does occur it might just digest it easier when it comes across it. Many people make claims that certain cube strains are more resistant than others.


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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: blackout]
    #11281077 - 10/20/09 12:31 AM (8 years, 3 days ago)

Sounds viable...just cause it doesn't have b-cells doesn't mean no immune system.

Grow an LC worth, sterilize and use as an innoculant...I'm curious whats gonna come out of it

-jon


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Terry M said:
Looking for rules that other people use successfully. Sterile procedure is just a set of rules that work.


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: tr8orjohn]
    #11282387 - 10/20/09 08:31 AM (8 years, 3 days ago)

You guys should first have a look here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8744951#8744951
Sillicybin posted a link to a PDF which explains in detail, which enzymes cause some kind of resistance and how mushroom mycelium reacts on trich. As far as I remember you rather want to sterile filter a trich LC than sterilize it and destroy the enzymes.

Carsten


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Offlinecalavera
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: Mycelio]
    #11282613 - 10/20/09 10:11 AM (8 years, 3 days ago)

Improvement in the resistance to an antagonist
by introduction of some of its metabolites to
the culture medium is a potential approach to the
protection of mushrooms.

So i was right?:laugh: kind of? introducing trichodermia to the spawn medium is helping fighting it later on? how come this idea is not spreaded around?


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Offlinecalavera
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: calavera]
    #11282616 - 10/20/09 10:13 AM (8 years, 3 days ago)

and i presume the trich itself is a pretty good pack of its metabolites to introduce


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: calavera]
    #11283587 - 10/20/09 01:33 PM (8 years, 2 days ago)

As I understand it, by adding trich enzymes, you can cause mycelium of some species and strains to enter defense mode and slow down its growth rate. Later, if it gets attacked by trichoderma again, it can react up to a third faster. That's all. If you have a species that reacts, the outcome of the final battle will still depend on strength and size of the mycelium, substrate composition, humidity, temperature and so on.

If I had to choose, I would favor faster growth over a slightly faster defense.

Carsten


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Offlinecalavera
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: Mycelio]
    #11285397 - 10/20/09 06:06 PM (8 years, 2 days ago)

Actually, i am not concerned about the protection for the mycelia in the spawning cycle, but the protection of the mycelia in the fruiting cycle.

Around my area trichodermia is used in agriculture, so the air carries massive sporeload of trich, and many culvitators have their healthy mushrooms attacked by them.

But really i was just wondering...:smile:

Thanks for your advices!

peace


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OfflineBrennus
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: calavera]
    #11306552 - 10/23/09 04:19 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Inoculating a strain against trich sounds similar to trying to vaccinate a human against a tiger. :shrug:

But hey, there's nothing wrong with experimentation. :thumbup:


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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: Brennus]
    #11309110 - 10/24/09 12:31 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

if fungi have a memory to store different compounds they encounter




I'd like to toy with this idea when I have the time/money/space (side-by-side, multiple trials, all that). I'd LOVE to find some biological mechanism for this, but I'm sure it's something as simple as the mycelium will excrete the enzymes that work, and will continue using the specific combination of enzymes to to digest from then on.


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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: kydelic]
    #11311109 - 10/24/09 12:48 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

It should be noted that Stamets, as briefly mentioned above, has commented on the 'naturalization' of mushroom mycelium. Basically, mycelium that has been allowed to grow outdoors while competing with other microorganisms is better 'inoculated' than mycelium grown indoors.


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Offlinehoudinihar
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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: Brennus]
    #11322917 - 10/26/09 09:38 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

also there are innumerable strains of trich that have identifiable genetic differences from each other. this is one of the problems we have in medicine and pharmacology in trying to develop a "vaccine" for a known agent. as with the current H1N1 pandemic it is hard to inoculate a population against mutated or designed viruses and bacteria. difficult indeed.

houdinihar


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Re: Mushroom "vakcine" against Trich? [Re: houdinihar]
    #11323784 - 10/26/09 01:40 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Trichoderma and other conidial molds usually attack the uncolonized parts of our substrates, not the mushroom mycelium itself.  I don't know how you'd vaccinate the substrate.
RR


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