whyblameus said:

there just living together like roommates.

---

Yea this is what I am thinking also

RogerRabbit said:

Workman said:

I keep hearing the same claim that crossed strains are not really hybrids.  Has anyone actually looked up the definition of a hybrid?  It is not as restrictive as some people seem to think.

hy·brid (hî'brĭd)
n.
Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

I recently bought some hybrid tomato and corn seed and I don't think they were crossed with other species.  Crossing two different varieties of cubensis is considered a hybrid under the above definition.

Most strains of cubensis are very similar in appearance making visual confirmation of a successful cross impossible.  For this reason I have been using very distinct strains, such as the PF Albino and Penis Envy, as my parent stock.
Workman's Hybridization Experiments 

---

Interesting.  So you consider a child born to a woman from france and a man from china a hybrid?  I prefer the term 'interracial', but that's just me.

In my opinion, a 'hybrid' should be a bit more difficult to acheive than that.  It's relatively easy to cross various strains of cubensis, with or without monokaryons, so I fail to see any real acheivement in doing so. 

Species of fungi have been successfully crossed, so in my opinion, that ups the ante in what we/I call a hybrid.  As I've said previously, others are free to disagree. 

Personally however, I will not to claim any work I do as a hybrid until it's a cross species pairing.
RR

---

RogerRabbit said:

Strains of the same species cross easily.  I avoid calling them 'hybrids', especially since the only difference many of the strains have is the name.  Every time you use multispore inoculation, thousands of 'strains' are created.  Most of these combine into a single organism.  Whether the spores came from the same print or multiple prints is irrelevant.
RR

---

truskool said:

sure you can but, you wont know which is which and I wouldnt suggest trading prints from that tub

---

truskool said:

the gentics will fight over space and nutes.  The stronger myc will produce fruitbodies.  You won't be able to tell which is oak ridge and whats bogus +

---

truskool said:

bogus +

---

I learned that the hard way...

Morelman said:

In this tub you are going to have B+, Oakridge and probably several crosses of the two.  The crosses will not breed true with MS until about seven generations.  Provided you can accurately identify the new sub-strain through morphology.  The more profound the morphology of the mature fruits, the easier it is to select.
I would not trade any of these prints.  You can clone these hybrids for yourself.  But until you've cleaned up the new sub-strain through MS and selection over seven generations.  You're trading a sporeprint that will produce both B+ and Oakridge.
Not good when someone is expecting one or the other and thinks they've got something new when a few "mutants" show up.  Then waste months or years of work to find they only succeeded in isolating one of your parent strains.

---

m00nshine said:

Morelman said:

In this tub you are going to have B+, Oakridge and probably several crosses of the two.  The crosses will not breed true with MS until about seven generations.  Provided you can accurately identify the new sub-strain through morphology.  The more profound the morphology of the mature fruits, the easier it is to select.
I would not trade any of these prints.  You can clone these hybrids for yourself.  But until you've cleaned up the new sub-strain through MS and selection over seven generations.  You're trading a sporeprint that will produce both B+ and Oakridge.
Not good when someone is expecting one or the other and thinks they've got something new when a few "mutants" show up.  Then waste months or years of work to find they only succeeded in isolating one of your parent strains.

---

Are you saying that you keep printing from the mushrooms that look new (neither 100% oakridge or 100% b+) and after about seven generations you have spores for a stabilized hybrid?

---

Morelman said:

It's exactly as I suggested.  Whether it's easy or not depends on how well equipped your lab and skills are.  Or how good of an eye you have for spotting variations from the norm.
Spotting an APE in a tub of PE and Albino is easy.  I know that's not how it was done.  But it could have been with patience.

---

truskool said:

Look at workmans work of ape 1.0 and ape 2.0 he did another hybrid also i forget what race check those out for the details i dont think its as easy as what morelman suggested

---

I looked for it and couldn't find it. the one thread I found actually had RR asking him for a synopsis of his process, but he seems to not have posted it.

m00nshine said:

Morelman said:

It's exactly as I suggested.  Whether it's easy or not depends on how well equipped your lab and skills are.  Or how good of an eye you have for spotting variations from the norm.
Spotting an APE in a tub of PE and Albino is easy.  I know that's not how it was done.  But it could have been with patience.

---

So you print the albino and just keep printing the resulting albino fruits?

truskool said:

Look at workmans work of ape 1.0 and ape 2.0 he did another hybrid also i forget what race check those out for the details i dont think its as easy as what morelman suggested

---

I looked for it and couldn't find it. the one thread I found actually had RR asking him for a synopsis of his process, but he seems to not have posted it.

---

truskool said:

ape 2.0
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10697373
Workman is the shit

---

Workman said:

Mushrooom genetics are a little strange since a single mushroom produces spores that can then act as both parents for a new mycelium.  Essentially, you are selfing or inbreeding each time you do a multispore grow.

Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity.  This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other.  Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions.  For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms.  If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.

Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes.  Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each.  Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall. 

Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later.  In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations.  There is a net loss of heterozygosity.  Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.

So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strain is stable even from multispore.

Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection.  In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.

100% wild print
50% 1st generation from wild print
25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print
12.5% 3rd generation.....
6.25% 4th generation.....
3.12% 5th generation.....
1.56% 6th generation.....
0.78% 7th generation.....

You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation.  This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from.  Attempting to isolate traits in well established strains results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).

In summary:

Popular classic strains in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.

New strains, from wild material or cross breeding between different strains of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.

Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever.  Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding.  Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.

Does that help?

---

truskool said:

that is workmans post on my thread about domesticating wild cubes tho

---

Yeah I know....I was just getting caught up in all the genetic-cross breeding talk and it does make for better understanding of mushroom genetics. 

CapHat said:

What would happen if two different mycelium strains came together making a single network?

---

anonjon said:

CapHat said:

What would happen if two different mycelium strains came together making a single network?

---

Happens everytime you grow a multispore inoculation.

If they are very different tho they might not join; just coexist.

---