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Invisiblepo0dingles
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Registered: 08/20/09
Posts: 419
[Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU!
    #11256846 - 10/16/09 12:37 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

I've had hours and hours of debate with my neighbor about God and Jesus. He believes that because I don't have absolute faith in Jesus or God, that I will be banished to hell.

Here's my argument:


Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful being create me, give me free will, allow the world to be polluted with misinformation and allow everyone to worship something different (each of them thinking they know what they're doing over the other) and PUNISH me for not knowing who to believe and who to follow?

Lets say God ISN'T all knowing and ISN'T all powerful. Lets say, for arguments sake, he's just as flawed as you and I. It makes NO logical sense what so ever to HIDE from people and PUNISH them for their beliefs.

Do you believe in invisible mile-long triangles that fly through our sky? No? Well that's why I'm not so sure about God. IF he does exist, I wasn't given any ability to acknowledge his presence. At least not for 100%. I have an inner voice--to which I believe to be my OWN voice. But my inability to confirm flying triangles leads me to believe they're not there--same with God. It's quite possible it IS there, but I cannot know it.

It's like Joe Rogan's Fart metaphor. Say you had a cold and your nose was stuffed up. A buddy comes over and farts--a silent one and you don't smell it (because you're stuffed up). Now...that fart exists. It's rotten and smelly and your friend is laughing because he can smell it in all its foul glory. But you cannot; your sense of smell isn't working. Does that mean the fart doesn't exist?

Well replace 'smell' with some sort of sense/ability inconceivable to us. I cannot sense a higher being. Why would he condemn me to eternal fire for that?

I have a dog. When he shits the carpet I punish him--but I do not torture him. I love him. And if God loves each and everyone one of us, why would he do this?

Lets say he doesn't love us then.

If God doesn't love us, why the FUCK would I worship him? "HE" can go fuck himself then and burn me. I'm not worshiping a Sadistic FUCK like that. That's not God, that's the Devil. If it's a choice between the Devil and the Devil, I'm left with not much choice, now am I? IF such is the case, then what difference does it make if I believe or don't believe?

I will not submit to a religion for selfish reasons. Eternal HELL is a KEY motivator for some people--a reason to USE and EXPLOIT religion, or the 'golden ticket'. I see this as no less honorable than befriending someone only in the summer so you can have access to his pool. It's selfish, and I don't want to be in Heaven with Selfish assholes anyway.


What do YOU guys think/believe? I hope and pray for TRUE freedom when I die. Freedom to create and express myself, my thoughts, and my ideas. To see the infinite truth of how the world really is rather than the way I personally have experienced it.



Background on me:
I'm an Agnostic who was confirmed in a Protestant (Christian) Church. I went through the process not knowing a SINGLE thing about the bible, Jesus's teachings, or what  it means to be a Christian. I didn't learn about Heaven and Hell and I didn't get anything out of it. It was just something to do...kinda like how some people go to college not really knowing why.


Edited by po0dingles (10/16/09 12:41 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,008
Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: po0dingles]
    #11256893 - 10/16/09 12:45 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

I think you shouldn't waste your time with people of faith.  Just smile and nod and let them live their life.

(But the minute he/she trys to convert you resist with zeal and not altogether without relish)


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InvisibleShad0w
In trouble again.
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Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 3,639
Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: po0dingles]
    #11256912 - 10/16/09 12:51 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

I guess its just how people see things.

I think the bible has lots of good ideas.

But, I dont think being afraid of death is a good enough answer to eternal belief.

Quote:

Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful being create me, give me free will, allow the world to be polluted with misinformation and allow everyone to worship something different (each of them thinking they know what they're doing over the other) and PUNISH me for not knowing who to believe and who to follow?





The answer of Who to follow is in your heart.

God isnt floating around in outer space.

And IF there is a judgement and a punishment....... Then, because you do not seek God... You then get to go to hell.

Does this make God , less?

See...... to really believe in a God or Force or Way......

You have to set it as the focal point for your WHOLE world......

Right now you are probably mostly using science mumbo jumbo.....

You cant say "shew me proof" when you wont take the first step that IS required.

FAITH.

First.

No other way.

God = Mad Genius

And, I can say all that without refering to the personal god of the bible.

I am using God in an amorphic sense.


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Invisiblepo0dingles
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Registered: 08/20/09
Posts: 419
Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: DieCommie]
    #11256913 - 10/16/09 12:51 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

As an agnostic, I stay true to my belief that I simply cannot know. I'm never arogant enough to say it does or does not exist.

But to play a silly game where puppets are created and you're operating behind a curtain--that's not a God I'd choose to worship.

I am thankful for every concious moment I have here and I'm greatly appreciative to have my health, my loved ones, my senses and my experiences. This, I celebrate. I also believe in leading a good life by being kind to others and embracing love and generosity and trying to repress negative emotions.

The true reason for my interest in altered states of conciousness is to obtain an awareness of higher beings. I've 'heard' voices several times on MJ but it leaves me perplexed. I never know if it's my own thoughts fucking with me or if it's something else. I guess I'll never know and be banished for not knowing.

To have FAITH in something I cannot sense sounds silly. It doesn't make sense. Try driving your car with an empty tank of gas to go GET gas. It won't work--the order of operations are backwards.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. If God were to reveal himself to me, allowing me 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's real. I would change my life immediately.


Edited by po0dingles (10/16/09 12:58 AM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
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Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: po0dingles]
    #11258231 - 10/16/09 08:56 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Well, one should never argue religion or politics.  Why beat your head(s) against the wall?

Never let them see you sweat.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: po0dingles]
    #11258295 - 10/16/09 09:19 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

po0dingles said:
I've had hours and hours of debate with my neighbor about God and Jesus. He believes that because I don't have absolute faith in Jesus or God, that I will be banished to hell.

Here's my argument:


Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful being create me, give me free will, allow the world to be polluted with misinformation and allow everyone to worship something different (each of them thinking they know what they're doing over the other) and PUNISH me for not knowing who to believe and who to follow?

Lets say God ISN'T all knowing and ISN'T all powerful. Lets say, for arguments sake, he's just as flawed as you and I. It makes NO logical sense what so ever to HIDE from people and PUNISH them for their beliefs.

Do you believe in invisible mile-long triangles that fly through our sky? No? Well that's why I'm not so sure about God. IF he does exist, I wasn't given any ability to acknowledge his presence. At least not for 100%. I have an inner voice--to which I believe to be my OWN voice. But my inability to confirm flying triangles leads me to believe they're not there--same with God. It's quite possible it IS there, but I cannot know it.

It's like Joe Rogan's Fart metaphor. Say you had a cold and your nose was stuffed up. A buddy comes over and farts--a silent one and you don't smell it (because you're stuffed up). Now...that fart exists. It's rotten and smelly and your friend is laughing because he can smell it in all its foul glory. But you cannot; your sense of smell isn't working. Does that mean the fart doesn't exist?

Well replace 'smell' with some sort of sense/ability inconceivable to us. I cannot sense a higher being. Why would he condemn me to eternal fire for that?

I have a dog. When he shits the carpet I punish him--but I do not torture him. I love him. And if God loves each and everyone one of us, why would he do this?

Lets say he doesn't love us then.

If God doesn't love us, why the FUCK would I worship him? "HE" can go fuck himself then and burn me. I'm not worshiping a Sadistic FUCK like that. That's not God, that's the Devil. If it's a choice between the Devil and the Devil, I'm left with not much choice, now am I? IF such is the case, then what difference does it make if I believe or don't believe?

I will not submit to a religion for selfish reasons. Eternal HELL is a KEY motivator for some people--a reason to USE and EXPLOIT religion, or the 'golden ticket'. I see this as no less honorable than befriending someone only in the summer so you can have access to his pool. It's selfish, and I don't want to be in Heaven with Selfish assholes anyway.


What do YOU guys think/believe? I hope and pray for TRUE freedom when I die. Freedom to create and express myself, my thoughts, and my ideas. To see the infinite truth of how the world really is rather than the way I personally have experienced it.



Background on me:
I'm an Agnostic who was confirmed in a Protestant (Christian) Church. I went through the process not knowing a SINGLE thing about the bible, Jesus's teachings, or what  it means to be a Christian. I didn't learn about Heaven and Hell and I didn't get anything out of it. It was just something to do...kinda like how some people go to college not really knowing why.



You seem to think that God is unjust in punishment of wickedness.  God does not willy nilly punish for no reason.  The wicked are punished because they DESERVE to be punished.  God is ALWAYS right, eternal punishment is just and RIGHT, soley because God has declared it to be right.  The wicked are owed nothing, they have no claim on God.  Mercy is not an obligation, entitlement, or right.  The amazing thing is that some are given what they don't deserve, mercy.

The Bible is clear that those who are saved were chosen from before the foundation of the world as objects of love.  While the non-saved are not loved, were not chosen, are vessels fitted to be destroyed, were ordained to their end, as objects to display God's righteous anger against unrighteousness.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: fivepointer]
    #11258605 - 10/16/09 10:55 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

evil hell is just an invention to keep people in line.

imagine if YOU justified the bulk of your actions on religious faith? also imagine if, you based your faith on this fear that the evil, loving god is going to punish you otherwise? So essentially a bulk of your actions (if not all of them) are based on this fear.

It is not easy for a human brain to just throw away the emotive backing behind its whole life. There are likely to be many neurons in their brains that associate with everything that also depend on God paradigm structures.

What does this mean? It just means that some people are locked into their faith, and no reasoning is going to change that. Its ludicrous to think that the mechanics of the universe actually involved a limited life on earth and then a ticket to heaven or hell for eternity. It is just a simple concept to refer to a place of goodness or a place of badness that is salient due to their importance in the spread of religion.


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11258714 - 10/16/09 11:33 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

I disagree that fear is the motivation.  Before faith one isn't afraid, since one doesn't believe any of it is true, so why be afraid?  A converted Christian has no fear of eternal punishment since they have been adopted eternally.  "Bad actions" can not undo salvation.

Christians are motivated by love, since they have been given love, and know this love through faith.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM
melomaniac

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 7,843
Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: fivepointer]
    #11258802 - 10/16/09 11:50 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

So that's why my church's pastor thought it was ok to fuck my Mom and steal her away to Reno when I was 11.

True story. I've forgiven him and I've been 'saved' so I guess it's ok for me to fuck some kid's mom now. :awesome:

Maybe I'll become a priest and just fuck some kid.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: fivepointer]
    #11259240 - 10/16/09 01:11 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I disagree that fear is the motivation.  Before faith one isn't afraid, since one doesn't believe any of it is true, so why be afraid?  A converted Christian has no fear of eternal punishment since they have been adopted eternally.  "Bad actions" can not undo salvation.

Christians are motivated by love, since they have been given love, and know this love through faith.




I was not making a broad generalisation of all christians. People all have their own reasons for their faith. But one way is as I described. I described it because I imagined the neighbor to have been brought up by a christian family, not a born again from a secular background.
When a child is brought up to believe something, they don't really get a rational choice in the matter to begin with. Once the notion of hell is in their minds, it is feared. However as the child grows, they gain the potential to reason for themselves. If they are held by fear of hell, it can prevent them from losing faith.
Once again, I am describing this example because I am imagining this character to be a certain way. particularly with regards to the vehemency that they were insisting on this hell business..


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Offlineandrewss
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Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: [Religion] Worship ME or to HELL with YOU! [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11259607 - 10/16/09 02:12 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

without this fear religion would lose its biggest utility "soft" enforcement of morality for the masses (via appeals to the superstitious reasoning of the brain)


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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