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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Philosophy = Spirituality???!
    #11240036 - 10/13/09 04:53 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Am I the only one that sees these as in conflict with each other?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11240256 - 10/13/09 05:25 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

No you're not the only one.

How do you see them as conflicting?

Personally they seem the same to me, though others will disagree. It seems that all of life is spiritual, so philosophy could entail an attempt to separate what is considered lazy, wishful thinking, from the more mentally challenging functions of logic and deduction even when (perhaps especially when) they conflict with "feelings"... though that could also be described as the quintessential spiritual task.

I would say that everything is accessible through philosophy, and everything is spiritual. However not all actions are philosophical, except perhaps by proxy and in hindsight... but that would be giving some people a lot of credit. But from a spiritual perspective (and philosophical), we're all doing what we can.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Rahz]
    #11240278 - 10/13/09 05:27 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Philosophy to Spirituality
Is Like
The Rules of Monopoly to the Game of Life.


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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11240815 - 10/13/09 07:07 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

One of the key tenets of spirituality is to ask/answer something that cannot be disproved or proved, and for the most part is unchangeable in the minds of most of it's followers. Some look at spirituality more openly and lightly but most do not (see Religion)

That IS NOT philosophy.

Quote:

Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. Philosophy is distinguished from other ways of addressing these questions (such as mysticism or mythology) by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on reasoned argument. Philosophy comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία [philosophia], which literally translates to "love of wisdom".



Copy pasta from wikipedia


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"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Rahz]
    #11240876 - 10/13/09 07:17 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Our issue is with the definition, using your definition of spirituality I don't see them as in conflict. However, I was using the definition also used by the poster above me, when using this definition I cannot help but be amazed at the number of threads on this board concerned with spirituality/religion. These subjects are not philosophical but based in superstition and blind faith.


--------------------
:eatingout:


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OfflineWasteland
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11240924 - 10/13/09 07:28 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

From my current understanding, philosophy and science and both intellectual exporations into collecting and compiling information into a mental model of the actual reality of this existence.

If spirituality and religion are the truths they claim, that their followers have faith in, then someday the information would align towards proving them to be that truth.


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CLICKY!!!
!
The Mad Shroomer said:
People are always promising the apocalypse. They never deliver. :frown:
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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Wasteland]
    #11240951 - 10/13/09 07:33 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

But until it does, they should be thoroughly rejected and saved(I guess...) for a later date, not be given billions of dollars a year and allowed to dictate the personal moral code of millions.


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"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11240991 - 10/13/09 07:39 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

I agree. And if philosophy is considered to be the love of wisdom (being wise also is a spiritual goal), then we should welcome those types of threads and relentlessly help them correct their blindness. The truth of such topics shouldn't be a problem to reveal for others, and the OP to see... unless of course they aren't really being philosophical/spiritual, in which case they probably won't enjoy the conversation and may eventually "get lost".

But for those who have some desire to re-examine their thoughts, and learn more than they already know, this should be an excellent place to post their biased views. A person could post a strong argument, secretly hoping it will be shot down. I think that desire is always in there somewhere, even if it proves otherwise. It could be the case that more fantasy needs to be entertained and examined before logic prevails, but at least they are looking for a challenge. This is different than someone who's looking for a group of like minded people who will support their lies.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Rahz]
    #11241005 - 10/13/09 07:41 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

It is a nice sentiment, but they never ever ever ever ever ever ever, ever ever... etc... want anyone to "correct their blindness" . All they want is people to agree with them and/or just to troll this forum.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Wasteland]
    #11241432 - 10/13/09 08:41 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Although religion contains some spirituality, I don't think they are the same. Further, raw spirituality is an inquiry, just as philosophy is, but rather than asking questions using the refined product of linguistic thought, it is done using ones awareness on a more fundamental level. To the thinker, every second is fleeting. The only seconds which can be thought of in a refined way... have already happened. Words don't suffice when examining the present moment.

So if there is any application for the word spiritual, in a world in which everyone is spiritual, then it should simply be meant to invoke what is perhaps a more wholesome mode of awareness in which mentation is a tool, and not the whole person/"I am the brain". Anything other than "wake up!" requires methodology, and is by definition, religious.

There are no direct conclusions to be drawn from the observance of a thing without the involvement of the mind. But from a desirable religious perspective the goal is to be made wholesome by integrating thought with awareness to become "one" and see things as they truly are. And in that sense, in some way we're all "religious about it" unless we're extremely lazy, and it should be pointed out that religion doesn't need "God", but "God" needs religion.

Religious dogma of the supernatural kind is of course a defining characteristic of those "religions" as we know them. So I'd say, Philosophy = a integral part of spirituality.

Lazy non-critical thought displaying a preference for an unexplored answer which pacifies the mind, rather than some curiosity = "religion".


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: mozhual]
    #11241540 - 10/13/09 08:56 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
All they want is people to agree with them




I think that's true on some level, but if that was all there was to it they wouldn't post here more than once or twice. A person who is willing to "punish" themselves here by declaring their belief in constant debate probably has some internal conflict going on. They may resist, and save face as best they can, but the contrast of views will be "under the belt" so to speak. It may "take a while" before they digest it, but there it is. :shrug:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Rahz]
    #11241591 - 10/13/09 09:02 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Lazy non-critical thought displaying a preference for an unexplored answer which pacifies the mind


Is how most people pursue "spirituality". Spirituality is much more akin to religion then philosophy, in that they are most commonly experienced together. And wouldn't you know it spirituality doesn't need to make sense either, it's just one assumption based on "feeling" after another with no rhyme or reason. THAT is nothing like philosophy.

Quote:

Religious dogma of the supernatural kind is of course usually a defining characteristic of those "religions"Spirituality as we know themit



Corrected for accuracy.

Quote:

I think that's true on some level, but if that was all there was to it they wouldn't post here more than once or twice. A person who is willing to "punish" themselves here by declaring their belief in constant debate probably has some internal conflict going on


That is exactly the problem!!! There are far more people here looking to contemplate some far out pseudo-religious bullshit then to ever try a hand at reason and logic. SO the spiritual and pseudo-religious support each other when ever they see fit and then conglomerate when ever one of us calls them on their bullshit and tells them to go back to M&P.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: mozhual]
    #11241942 - 10/13/09 09:44 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Spirituality is much more akin to religion then philosophy, in that they are most commonly experienced together.




In my view, it's all spiritual. One combo is perhaps more common, but that isn't so much a commentary on a lack of spirituality in philosophy, but rather a lack of philosophy in the average person. People are born into religions, and are attracted to "spirituality" as an alternative, but you can't force them to think critically.

The drug culture is generally going to be less mainstream, hence the New Age tone, but this alone does not make a person more rational. If someone doesn't like defending the finer points of philosophy, this might not be the best place to be. Those posts are sometimes quite entertaining.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


Edited by Rahz (10/13/09 09:47 PM)


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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Rahz]
    #11242105 - 10/13/09 10:03 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

This:
Quote:

but rather a lack of philosophy in the average person. People are born into religions, and are attracted to "spirituality" as an alternative, but you can't force them to think critically.




and this:
Quote:

If someone doesn't like defending the finer points of philosophy, this might not be the best place to be. Those posts are sometimes quite entertaining.




we can very much agree on.

Quote:

The drug culture is generally going to be less mainstream, hence the New Age tone, but this alone does not make a person more rational.


Not quite sure what you mean by this though :tongue:


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: mozhual]
    #11243383 - 10/14/09 01:30 AM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Conceived of as "the search for what is highest or universal in reality" than philosophy and spirituality (as well as religion, but that's a whole other story) can be one and the same. The largest difference that I see between philosophy and spirituality is their method of inquiry, how they tackle this task of finding what is highest in reality. Philosophy takes an abstract, largely analytical, approach to understanding reality. Spirituality takes a more personal, experiential, and practice oriented route.

But as I understand it, the domains of philosophy and spirituality are far too variegated and diverse to be generalized. My own interests lie in philosophy so I will comment on that. Not all philosophers are analytic, logic-oriented, and systematic. Many of them are psychological, emotion driven, and deliberately unsystematic. Some are rationalists, others are empiricists. Schopenhauer, for instance, is not considered a philosopher in many academic circles because he is "too mystical" and not analytical enough.

All I'm saying is, as fields of inquiry philosophy and spirituality are different ways of pursuing the same fundamental question(s). There will be some direct and substantial overlap between some mytics and some philosophers, but is it fair to generalize both disciplines on the macrolevel? That all depends on how you slice it...


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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: ShroomScape]
    #11245231 - 10/14/09 01:00 PM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Yes some philosophers differ, but that was before we had attained the vast sums of knowledge that we now have. Modern philosophers that derive their inquiry from purely emotional or irrational means are generally shunned and are certainly not widely accepted as philosophers, by other philosophers.

What it comes down to is choice. If you want to define philosophy as you do and include the intellectually dishonest among the, radically different, intellectually honest, then by all means(certainly enough people before you have done the same). I however reason that it is downright nonsensical to group people who reason and cogitate for answers and people who emote and introvert for answers as the same discipline.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11245265 - 10/14/09 01:07 PM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Am I the only one that sees these as in conflict with each other?





No you are not.

I really don't know what "spirituality" is. Does it mean we have a "spirit"? Then there is no evidence of it IMO. So it's like saying Philosophy = God. :crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/14/09 01:08 PM)


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Icelander]
    #11245272 - 10/14/09 01:08 PM (8 years, 10 days ago)

What are Morals? What are they a product of besides pedagogy and social conditioning? Anything?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Fraggin]
    #11245279 - 10/14/09 01:10 PM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Not to my knowledge.

I have little use for them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Philosophy = Spirituality???! [Re: Icelander]
    #11245333 - 10/14/09 01:21 PM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Then how do you operate within the coinfines of a socially acceptable status?


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