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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
In a Just world
    #11234208 - 10/12/09 06:24 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

You would all be able to take and sell drugs as you so choose.

No one would have the right to initiate force against another.

There would be no welfare state (sorry parasites) because that would be a violation of the above law.

Voluntary consent would be the only way one could deal with another person.

We would all (rational people) be better off in this world.

Agreed?


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InvisibleMnboardin
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Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 767
Re: In a Just world [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11234242 - 10/12/09 06:32 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

So, you define justice as being able to take and sell any drugs, only "dealing" with someone through "voluntary consent," not having the "right" to initiate "force" against another, and having a law which would prevent the existence of a "welfare state."

Please, define the above quoted.

Is this definition of justice only held by rational people? If so, I may be an irrational person, and I may not be better off in this world.

What are your thoughts on compassion? Compassion being the feeling and subsequent concern for the alleviation of the suffering of others.


--------------------
:hamletmonkey:


Edited by Mnboardin (10/12/09 06:42 PM)


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Invisiblesubject
eat the sun
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/01/09
Posts: 1,882
Loc: Humboldt
Re: In a Just world [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11234257 - 10/12/09 06:36 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

wait so people on welfare are parasites? shit


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nappy then, nappy now, nappy for a bit
knee deep head over heals in this country shit


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,006
Re: In a Just world [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11234263 - 10/12/09 06:37 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Mnboardin said:
What are your thoughts on compassion? Compassion being the feeling and subsequent concern for the alleviation of the suffering of others.




I see nothing in there that negates your right to exercise compassion.


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InvisibleMnboardin
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Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 767
Re: In a Just world [Re: subject]
    #11234266 - 10/12/09 06:38 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

subject said:
wait so people on welfare are parasites? shit




It's ironic because the welfare state may exist because of an extreme degree of exploitation. Is there anything more parasitic than exploitation?


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:hamletmonkey:


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InvisibleMnboardin
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Re: In a Just world [Re: DieCommie]
    #11234281 - 10/12/09 06:40 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Mnboardin said:
What are your thoughts on compassion? Compassion being the feeling and subsequent concern for the alleviation of the suffering of others.




I see nothing in there that negates your right to exercise compassion.




I saw potential, and it sparked my curiosity.


--------------------
:hamletmonkey:


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: In a Just world [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11234293 - 10/12/09 06:42 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

No, I only said that in a Just world people would be able to freely trade with one another and no one could initiate force against another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: In a Just world [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11234295 - 10/12/09 06:42 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
You would all be able to take and sell drugs as you so choose.



So long as there are consumer protections to account for information asymmetry.

Quote:

No one would have the right to initiate force against another.



Vague.  The classic libertarian notion of what constitutes force is too narrow.

Quote:

There would be no welfare state (sorry parasites) because that would be a violation of the above law.



There would be no need for welfare because the systemic inequities which cause involuntary poverty would be corrected.

Quote:

Voluntary consent would be the only way one could deal with another person.



Only so long as the consenting parties are on equal ground.

Quote:

We would all (rational people) be better off in this world.



Try again, Galt.


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: In a Just world [Re: subject]
    #11234302 - 10/12/09 06:43 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

subject said:
wait so people on welfare are parasites? shit




Essentially yes, they feed off of the fruits of the productive (this requires initiation of force by government)


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Invisiblesubject
eat the sun
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Re: In a Just world [Re: Silversoul]
    #11234315 - 10/12/09 06:45 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

sure people exploit welfare, but other people actually need it. like single mothers who's baby daddy's just leave them to care for a family.


--------------------
nappy then, nappy now, nappy for a bit
knee deep head over heals in this country shit


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: In a Just world [Re: subject]
    #11234323 - 10/12/09 06:47 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

subject said:
sure people exploit welfare, but other people actually need it. like single mothers who's baby daddy's just leave them to care for a family.




They don't have anyone who given that they were not taxed would voluntarily consent to helping them in their struggle?

Even if not they do not have the right to put a gun to my head and take money out of my pocket.


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InvisibleMnboardin
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Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 767
Re: In a Just world [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11234332 - 10/12/09 06:48 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
No, I only said that in a Just world people would be able to freely trade with one another and no one could initiate force against another.



Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

subject said:
sure people exploit welfare, but other people actually need it. like single mothers who's baby daddy's just leave them to care for a family.




They don't have anyone who given that they were not taxed would voluntarily consent to helping them in their struggle?

Even if not they do not have the right to put a gun to my head and take money out of my pocket.




Nice generalizations.


--------------------
:hamletmonkey:


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: In a Just world [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11234340 - 10/12/09 06:49 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

:what:


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Invisiblesubject
eat the sun
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Registered: 09/01/09
Posts: 1,882
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Re: In a Just world [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11234345 - 10/12/09 06:51 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

subject said:
wait so people on welfare are parasites? shit




Essentially yes, they feed off of the fruits of the productive (this requires initiation of force by government)



Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

subject said:
sure people exploit welfare, but other people actually need it. like single mothers who's baby daddy's just leave them to care for a family.




They don't have anyone who given that they were not taxed would voluntarily consent to helping them in their struggle?

Even if not they do not have the right to put a gun to my head and take money out of my pocket.



no the money from your pocket is going to fund bullshit like nasa bombing the moon. helping feed other humans is more important. if you were in a situation where working a 9 to 5 barely payed the bills let alone fed 3 kids and helped save for higher education, you might understand.


--------------------
nappy then, nappy now, nappy for a bit
knee deep head over heals in this country shit


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: In a Just world [Re: subject]
    #11234355 - 10/12/09 06:53 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

subject said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

subject said:
wait so people on welfare are parasites? shit




Essentially yes, they feed off of the fruits of the productive (this requires initiation of force by government)



Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

subject said:
sure people exploit welfare, but other people actually need it. like single mothers who's baby daddy's just leave them to care for a family.




They don't have anyone who given that they were not taxed would voluntarily consent to helping them in their struggle?

Even if not they do not have the right to put a gun to my head and take money out of my pocket.



no the money from your pocket is going to fund bullshit like nasa bombing the moon. helping feed other humans is more important. if you were in a situation where working a 9 to 5 barely payed the bills let alone fed 3 kids and helped save for higher education, you might understand.




If you want to voluntarily help someone I have no problem with that. I do however have a problem with you putting a gun to my head and forcing me to pay for your charitable motives.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: In a Just world [Re: subject]
    #11234364 - 10/12/09 06:55 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

What I never understood about minarchist libertarians and Objectivists is the idea that welfare spending is stealing.  Clearly they support some form of taxation, or else they'd be anarchist.  And if you are required to pay taxes, the things the government spends it on are immaterial to whether or not it's stealing.  If taxation is theft, then it's theft no matter how you spend it.  If some forms of taxation are not theft, then you don't get to say that it becomes stealing by spending on something other than what you consider to be the proper role of government.  Whatever the case, it's incoherent to say that people have a right to low taxes, or the right to have the taxes spent in only the ways that a specific ideology dictates.


--------------------


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: In a Just world [Re: Silversoul]
    #11234389 - 10/12/09 06:58 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

All forms of 'taxation' is theft.

The bottom line is this - in a free society people should (and I would argue that they would) voluntarily contribute towards their own protection of rights.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: In a Just world [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11234396 - 10/12/09 07:00 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
All forms of 'taxation' is theft.

The bottom line is this - people should voluntarily contribute towards their own protection.



So then you're an anarchist?


--------------------


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: In a Just world [Re: Silversoul]
    #11234400 - 10/12/09 07:00 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
All forms of 'taxation' is theft.

The bottom line is this - people should voluntarily contribute towards their own protection.



So then you're an anarchist?




No. I do not believe in the 'privatisation' of the use of force, I believe in a  voluntary government having a monopoly on force to protect rights impartially.

Anyhow, this is not the political forum.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: In a Just world [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11234402 - 10/12/09 07:01 PM (8 years, 7 days ago)

How, then, do you propose to fund a state without coercion?


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