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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Punctual vs Gradual evolution
    #11232789 - 10/12/09 02:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Do you all think that evolution is simply a long steady gradual process?

Or do you feel it is long periods of stability and equilibrium, followed by violent abrupt changes in the evolution of life.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11232827 - 10/12/09 02:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

As I understand it, the current evidence indicates that the latter characterization is more accurate.


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OfflineUnparalized
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11232860 - 10/12/09 02:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well...i think that its a combination of both. Mother Nature likes to shake things up every couple of million years or so.  The best analogy of evolution i can think of is this; take a shotgun and shoot your engine in your car and expect it to work better.  It might take 20 million cars and a lot of shells, but eventually one of them buck shots will do "something" to make the care more suitable.  So, if evolution is based on the expression of certain mutations in genes, it would take a lot of messed up mutations to ever create the ones needed to fit the changing environment.  Genes always mutate, that's why nobody looks exactly like someone else, just similar, so i think its a gradual process followed by founder effects and mass decline in species numbers.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: Unparalized]
    #11232868 - 10/12/09 02:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So you believe that its just a matter of probability before a drastic new change will appear in a species.  And that during that time for it to occur evolution follows a gradual change.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: Silversoul]
    #11232870 - 10/12/09 02:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think it is both. Long, slow gradual internal genetic changes with little outward indication - and then a sudden outward change.

This may be a poor analogy, but picture filling up a frail glass bowl one grain of sand at a time. There will come a point when the internal pressure is sufficent that one tiny grain will be the trigger for the bowl to break.

It shatters suddenly, but pressure was slowly being built with each grain.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11232881 - 10/12/09 02:27 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Why did it take procaryotes a couple billion years to evolove into more complex species?  And why did it take 100,000+ thousand years for man to become his modern self from previous ancestor?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11232916 - 10/12/09 02:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

100,000 years is pretty sudden, a result of the drastic change in the environment.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: DieCommie]
    #11232942 - 10/12/09 02:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
100,000 years is pretty sudden, a result of the drastic change in the environment.



Yeah.  In geological time, 100,000 years is barely a blink of an eye.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: DieCommie]
    #11232963 - 10/12/09 02:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

100,000 years is very sudden.

If distance represented time at a rate of 1cm per year.  The amount of time it would take for modern man to emerge from previous ancestor would be 0.6213711922373 miles long.  If you did the same thing for procaryotes to evolve into more complex species it would be about half the distance between New York, NY and San Francisco, CA.


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OfflineTheBalance
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11233094 - 10/12/09 03:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Do you all think that evolution is simply a long steady gradual process?

Or do you feel it is long periods of stability and equilibrium, followed by violent abrupt changes in the evolution of life.




I agree with what OC said about the Bowl breaking.

I tend to think the same way.

I have had this idea, growing up on an orchard, that humanity has been grafted onto inferior/alien/unreliable rootstock.  ...Has been removed collectively from the Truth/Source/History/Original Roots and has been forced onto a trellis.  Tied down and forced to fruit.

Fruit bitch.  Work for me.  Give me what you got.  Bigger, brighter, sweeter.  Your fruit is my currency.  Fruit is THE resource.

Fruit!!  Within this context dammit.  Your mind is my crop.

Same idea with the Bowl...
As our collective tree(s) tries to free its limbs from the rows of trellis wire and reconnect/discover its original roots it forcefully explodes from its once restricted arrangement.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Punctual vs Gradual evolution [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11233802 - 10/12/09 05:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'd have to say all of the above.

Evolution contains a lot of gray, but if you goto the molecular level things are much more interesting and make much more sense. Here, speculation on the macroevolution makes sense and is actually enjoyable to discuss.  While the methods and techniques associated with molecular biology appear like black magic, trying to discuss evolution without molec bio seems like talking about black magic.  Might as well open up another christianity thread so we can bang our heads on the wall as to why the hell we're talking about the same thing again.

Look at the DNA... no, fuck the DNA, look at the mRNA, I wanna know what's expressed now.  What environments benefit certain genes?  And how do these genes benefit the organism to fit in these environments?  Is the environment stressful?  How does stress affect the organism? What's the variation?  As a result of embryonic stress, how does that affect the developing embryo? What set points in gene pathways are altered and what are their downstream affects?

Prokaryotes and Eukaryotes have their different ways of handling stress and trying to conserve their heredity.  Affecting them during critical periods of development is enough to permanently alter future generations and I'm willing to bet money (one dollar) that any changes that we see(appearing as evolution) is something that happened during embryonic development in combination with "the good luck lottery" of attaining a trait for something like a bigger beak(having a dominant phenotype/genotype for that) for cracking larger nuts rather than a disadvantaged trait.

With this said, let me throw in an example as to how evolution could be punctual...  There's a study that had a pregnant primate in a stressful environment.  Weak androgens released and circulating during the pregnancy affected the developing embryo.  In turn, the offspring were noticeably more aggressive.

If anyone is interested in what I'm talking about, then refer to Epigenetics and maybe ecotoxicogenomics.

Scientists observe how something works by inducing a change or a mutation.  Ecotoxicogenomics, ecotoxicology, reproductive toxicology..... We're looking at that effects of a contaminated environment or just different environments on an animal's growth and development.  I think this is an interesting way to study evolution.  Not entirely the toxicology aspect, but how different environments have animals that express their genes differently. 

I hate talking about evolution on the  macroecology level. By itself, it explains nothing except for the distribution of different species.  I'm sure they're out there, but it'd be really interesting to see a microarray of different genes expressed compared to the animals' distribution.



Edited by Cracka_X (10/12/09 07:51 PM)


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