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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Dominance.?.
    #1123146 - 12/08/02 11:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Consider this:

Take 8 humans and put them out in the woods with a knife each. After a while
they will be organised with a leader and several other roles.

Why?


Then take 250(Fcuerkt) humans and put them in the woods with a knife each. After a
while they will have split up in smaller groups each with a leader. And as
time goes by they will fight eachother.

Why is this?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Edited by David_Scape (12/09/02 04:30 PM)


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OfflineKillerClown
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Registered: 10/31/02
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1123161 - 12/08/02 11:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The same reason salmon swim upstream, birds migrate and bears hibernate. Humans are just animals with brains, our instincts still drive everything we do.


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OfflineFcuerkt
insane visionary

Registered: 11/11/02
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1123488 - 12/09/02 01:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think the tribe would split up at 50, I think they would split at 200. That's about the maximum number of close acquaintances a brain can handle.

That's why units of individual soldiers in the US army never exceed 250. Isn't that a funny little fact? I read it in a book called "The Tipping Point."


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Anonymous

Re: Dominance.?. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1124288 - 12/09/02 10:39 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I would guess it's something about man's nature.


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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
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Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: KillerClown]
    #1124963 - 12/09/02 03:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My mother has a problem accepting the fact that we are mainly animals guided by instinct with tendencies towards these kinds of social arrangements. These arrangments arent always pretty and raping, killing, stealing, cheating and subjugating the weak, without authority are often present (especially in the numbers Fcuerkt suggested.).



--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: ]
    #1125008 - 12/09/02 03:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

First off, Mr. Scape is making some pretty big assumptions. There is no way to know what the true outcomes of these tests would be unless they were actually formally conducted.

But assuming these outcomes did occur, why do you attribute them to man's nature? I would think these behaviors are more something that have been learned from the way our society is than from something that is in our nature.

Also, I think it depends greatly on who the tests are conducted on. The outcomes proposed by Mr. Scape might be correct if the participants were all white males. But what if they were all females? Or Native Americans? Or Buddhist monks from India?

If all men (or women) would not react the same to the tests, then whatever the results were could not be attributed to man's nature. It would have to be something that was learned.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1125100 - 12/09/02 03:54 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Mankind will be doing experiments very similar to this if/when we get off this planet; maybe then we'll know


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlineupupup
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1125187 - 12/09/02 04:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I lived for several years in a communal situation that was based on living out in the forest and living basically like indians. The biggest problem we had was sex.

We were all brought up as selfish americans (except one person from Sweden) and living that close without all the distractions (no electricity so no TV, radio, computers, etc.) it was very intense. There were many interpersonal problems but as I said sex was the biggest problem. Most of the folks were couples who had met under different circumstances than living aboriginal style and when the circumstances changed to a more simple environment peoples ideals about what was important in a mate changed radically. Every single couple broke up and switched mates. It was very difficult but still the highest quality of life I have ever experienced. What could be better than being able to do whatever you wanted everyday with everything you needed right there, making hot love with your mate in your yurt while the wind and snow raged outside, the sweat from your passion alight with the glow of the fire while you make love on the wall to wall sheep skins......


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1125192 - 12/09/02 04:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

First off, dont call me Mr.Scape, It makes me feel like an asshole :grin:. David is fine.

"There is no way to know what the true outcomes of these tests would be unless they were actually formally conducted."

True. Not only that, but you might want to profile the people you sent over there. So we could see and understand the conflicts and then judge if they are nature or nurture. You've pointed this out.

If these people were 250 buddist monks....well, of course there would still be conflicts but...I'm wondering how hierarchical they'd be and why. In the above I am wondering about humans interactions with people they dont know, in a possible situation of limited resources, away from any authority. So I am assuming these monks dont know each other and beliefs may be different here and there. I am still clinging to the concept that they would have the above socail arranggement In both situations with 8 and 250, but i am willing to accept they wouldnt fight.   

If they're all Americans (which is what i was picturing in my head when i made this thread. Obviously.) I picked from all over the states at random. Then their differences in beliefs and ways will cause conflict and probably the horrible things I mentioned in my second post.

Overall I think that at large or small numbers, humans definetly have these tendencies. I think these things are some of the basic instincts that helped us survive and have much to do with our hierarchical tendecies toward dominating each other. 

P.s. Dont you think that scientists or psychologists today could predict these outcomes to a certain degree? I understand they couldnt predict them for sure.

 


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Edited by David_Scape (12/09/02 04:27 PM)


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Dominance.?. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1125235 - 12/09/02 04:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

don't forget about the buddist monk that was recently charged with assualting another monk with a knife after they got into an argument about food or some shit like that somewhere in like tailand or some place.... :shocked:

shit....at rainbow gatherings I have seen krishnas just short of getting into fistfights....


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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Anonymous

Re: Dominance.?. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1125556 - 12/09/02 06:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't use a test like that to determine the nature of man. I use the nature of man, which I am quite familiar with and extrapolate from there. Haven't you read Lord of the Flies?

Cheers,


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,152
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Dominance.?. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1125624 - 12/09/02 06:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

great post!!!

i see the monks and the native americans throwing the knife aside and sitting down to meditate...

was it diderot, or rousseau that said "all humans are good by nature, it is society that corrupts them."? i find this to be VERY TRUE


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: upupup]
    #1125636 - 12/09/02 06:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

man, that sounds like an experience id like to make... just wonderful...


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Anonymous

Re: Dominance.?. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1125679 - 12/09/02 06:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Even if the group was made up of females or native Americans or Buddhists or whatever, David is correct that there would still be a dominant leader(s) that emerges and takes charge of the group, not necessarily by threat of violence. This is simply the nature of man, there will always be someone who takes the role of leader among the weaker people.


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Offlineupupup
guardian

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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: In(di)go]
    #1125680 - 12/09/02 06:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

It was righteous if I might use that term....

We all wore buckskin clothing that we made from the deer we would eat (braintan), gathered as much of our food and medicine from the forest as we could the rest of the food being bulk organic, and just messed around....for a whole year if the fire went out I/my partner would start it with a bow drill or hand drill....

There was much, much beauty in it but like I said, it is hard for UNRELATED, selfish, americans to get together and live tribal but damn if we didn't try....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: upupup]
    #1125713 - 12/09/02 06:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

righteous... hits the spot for me!  :grin:

im glad there is still people trying to do this kind of things...


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: ]
    #1125745 - 12/09/02 07:09 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Exacly what I saw. People who were pretty cool out in the "world" all of the sudden lost some of thier coolness when the reality of being responsible for their exsistence hit them. When you can't just walk over and turn up the heat or open up the fridge things change.

When I came upon this "movement" I had been running with the rainbow family. These "abo's" walked thier talk as you HAD to. There was no BS of "Let's help the earth brothers and sisters! Hand me that cigarett and pop please."

One particular fellow who thought we was the leader turned out to be a very bitter follower after everything manifest itself and the real leaders emerged from very unlikly places....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Dominance.?. [Re: upupup]
    #1126013 - 12/09/02 08:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Upupup, that sounds like an amazing experience!  I would love to try living that way myself, but with less people probably.

Oh, and sorry for calling you Mr. Scape, David!  I just thought I would be nice and formal since I have not met you before, but I'll stick to David now that you said something.  I'm Steve, by the way!  (Well, obviously...) :smile:

-RebelSteve 

P.S.  I love your avatar, David!!!


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Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/09/02 08:22 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: upupup]
    #1126054 - 12/09/02 08:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I want to walk what I talk, and be responsible for my own existence... It is quite hard to when you live in a modern-day, middle class American environment such as I do at the moment.  :frown:

Next spring I'm hoping to either join up with some Rainbow people or take a trip into the mountains, and just see where the wind takes me... 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
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Re: Dominance.?. [Re: Adamist]
    #1126780 - 12/09/02 11:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Montana baby....or eastern WA, north ID.

Check out the "rabbit stick"....it's a gathering that happens outside or Rexburg, ID around the 3rd week of september. It costs but they feed you and you can learn tons of stuff there about how to "really" live....

do some searches regarding primitive technologies, braintanning, or survival skills.....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Edited by upupup (12/09/02 11:24 PM)


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