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 koopa_troopa
the fun guy
 
Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 388
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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 SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? 
#11230633 - 10/11/09 11:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Im sure many of the experienced members around here have heard of supplementation at casing aka SACing, yet I have never seen or heard of anyone on these forums actually putting this much tested and seemingly amazing technique to work. This baffles me, seeing as how there are hundreds of threads on these boards discussing ways to increase flushes and yield, yet here lies one of the must proven and easiest methods to do so and no one does it.
For those that are unaware what SACing is, it is the practice of breaking apart colonized bulk substrates and adding supplementing it with organic material usually rich in nitrogen and lipid content. Common materials usually consist of ground soybean, flax seed, and rape seed.
I believe the lack of SACing attempts by members is due to the fear of shredding precious bulk subs which are colonized and ready to fruit & I believe I may have stumbled upon a method to potentially bypass this issue.
I just ordered one of these solid flavor injectors http://www.tvtopten.com/solid-flavor-injector.html which more or less acts as a syringe that is capable of injecting solid material. I will be using it to inject pasteurized ground soybean periodically throughout my next colonized substrate and will compare the results with an identical substrate colonized by the same cube isolate. Sounds like a damn fine evening of experimentation if you ask me..
Any comments.. suggestions!? And please.. I would love to hear if anyone has any experience with either SACing or SASing, im all ears.. I myself have tried it recently and had great results but unfortunately did not have a control so it may have been shear luck (or just mad skizillz!!) that I had such killer yeilds. But frankly, Im dumfounded no one around here has tried a technique that consistently proves to increase yields by 80-150%!!
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Koopa OutOfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars
Edited by koopa_troopa (10/12/09 12:07 AM)
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 I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: koopa_troopa]
#11230861 - 10/12/09 12:38 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why not add all that before colonization so you dont have to break it all up again once its colonized? I add blood meal before spawning. Huge in nitrogen. Why break up a fully colonized bulk tub and add it after? Seems like a waste of time...
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
#11231000 - 10/12/09 01:14 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Also a casing layer is typically used for water/contam barrier. Adding nutrients will run a higher risk for contams, resulting in a lower yield rendering the process useless.
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just me
Friend
Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 9,745
Loc: IL/MO/FL/TX/HI/OR
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
#11231169 - 10/12/09 01:58 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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i know koopa knows whats up
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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-
"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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koopa_troopa
the fun guy
Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 388
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: koopa_troopa]
#11232730 - 10/12/09 12:00 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Your missing the entire point my good man.. you are referring to SASing (supplementation at spawning) and it doesnt work nearly as well as SACing. This thread was mainly for those who have read the Penn state studies and the like.. Its not whether it would work.. its it does work with amazing results..
The simple act of the mycelium colonizing the substrate depletes many of the nutrient reserves.. which is why adding fresh material results in such large boosts in yield. Its the same basic principle that Spawn Mate was built on.. except it is a marriage between SACing and SASing.. where nutrients are added at spawning which do not break down until after colonization is complete. If it was as simple as throwing the nutrients in before hand then there wouldnt be such a thing as SACing..
Also with cubes, I find that the last thing a casing does is PREVENT contams.. in most cases it introduces it..
A simple method which I used last time to reduce contam risks was to sterilize my subs in large autoclavable bags, spawn-- then once colonized-- crumble sub--cut open bags add sterilized ground soy bean, re crumble to mix and reseal. allow to recolonize and then add several to monos, flattening them out to fit. Allow a few days for the sub blocks to fuse before enducing fruiting conditions.. 8 Bags, 0 contams. Amazing flushes.
Yo Livingston! Where you at?
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Koopa OutOfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars
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Epilson Lyrae
Armed with hammers
Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 5,561
Loc: Woody Creek
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: koopa_troopa]
#11232772 - 10/12/09 12:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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when you say sterilized ground soybean are you referring to soybean meal?
Also when you refer to casing, you make no mention of casing. Am I reading this correctly?
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"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." H.T.
I've come to believe that the heart is the filter of the enlightened mind. Epilson Lyrae
Edited by Epilson Lyrae (10/12/09 12:09 PM)
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koopa_troopa
the fun guy
Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 388
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
#11232890 - 10/12/09 12:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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I mention casing b/c thats what the technique is called.. meaning you would do it right before you normally would case ( when the sub is completely colonized and almost ready to fruit).. however I do not case with cubes.
Different studies have used both ground soy bean, ground soy bean hulls, and soy bean meal... I simply dehydrate soy beans then grind them in a blender or coffee grinder... be sure to filter out all the whole bean and larger pieces as the sub can utilize the ground powder much quicker.
Here are a few studies:
www.pubhort.org/members/showdocument%3Fseries%3Disms%26vid%3D11%26part%3D1%26article%3D39%26layout%3Dpubhort%26action%3Dshowdocument%26lidvan%3Dishs+supplementation+at+casing+soybean+ground&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noreferrer noopener">http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:dy7IhZ4j8HIJ:www.pubhort.org/members/showdocument%3Fseries%3Disms%26vid%3D11%26part%3D1%26article%3D39%26layout%3Dpubhort%26action%3Dshowdocument%26lidvan%3Dishs+supplementation+at+casing+soybean+ground&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V24-4WM68C0-8&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1045036086&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=19f78b766840ea91336c031986efe446
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:EANkt6nMF2oJ:digital.library.ksu.edu.sa/V2M33R1627.pdf+supplementation+at+casing&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
A very comprehensive study done by Penn State is already floating around here.. ill try to dig it up and post it pretty soon. Most studies agree that yield increases by over 100% and even extra flushes can be added by breaking apart SPENT subs and supplementing it in the same was as one would with SACing
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Koopa OutOfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars
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koopa_troopa
the fun guy
Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 388
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: koopa_troopa]
#11232904 - 10/12/09 12:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Koopa OutOfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars
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Epilson Lyrae
Armed with hammers
Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 5,561
Loc: Woody Creek
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: koopa_troopa]
#11232969 - 10/12/09 12:42 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Very cool indeed. I am frankly surprised that none of my research has turned this up before and I think that it in very interesting.
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"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." H.T.
I've come to believe that the heart is the filter of the enlightened mind. Epilson Lyrae
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: koopa_troopa]
#11232989 - 10/12/09 12:46 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koopa_troopa said:
A simple method which I used last time to reduce contam risks was to sterilize my subs in large autoclavable bags, spawn-- then once colonized-- crumble sub--cut open bags add sterilized ground soy bean, re crumble to mix and reseal. allow to recolonize and then add several to monos, flattening them out to fit. Allow a few days for the sub blocks to fuse before enducing fruiting conditions.. 8 Bags, 0 contams. Amazing flushes.
Which is actually not casing at all, but adding another batch of substrate. Perhaps I just missed something?
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Epilson Lyrae
Armed with hammers
Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 5,561
Loc: Woody Creek
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#11233037 - 10/12/09 12:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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OK, I'm having a little trouble with the links but tell me if I understand you correctly.
Let's say that you take a fully colonized grain and mix it with a pasteurized bulk substrate such as CCV: for simplicity.
Once it has fully colonized but before introducing it to fruiting conditions you physically break up the sub and add a predetermined amount of sterilized additive? (in this case let's say ground soybean)
Then you allow it to recover and fruit as normal?
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"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." H.T.
I've come to believe that the heart is the filter of the enlightened mind. Epilson Lyrae
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Epilson Lyrae
Armed with hammers
Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 5,561
Loc: Woody Creek
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
#11234579 - 10/12/09 05:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would still like to know what difference it would make adding it after full colonization rather than when mixing up the spawn and the bulk substrate. Anyone??????
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"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." H.T.
I've come to believe that the heart is the filter of the enlightened mind. Epilson Lyrae
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just me
Friend
Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 9,745
Loc: IL/MO/FL/TX/HI/OR
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
#11234594 - 10/12/09 05:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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the time of consumption
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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-
"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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mister
Nature nut
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 2,926
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
#11234633 - 10/12/09 05:40 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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OK as stated in The Mushroom Cultivator, page 126, bottom paragraph,
"Supplementation at Casing (S.A.C)
SACing is another method used to boost the nutritional content of the substrate. The materials used are soy bean meal, cotton seed meal, and/or ground rye, wheat or kafir corn grains. The fully colonized substrate is thoroughly mixed with any one of these materials at a rate of 10% of the dry weight of the substrate. The substrate and the supplements must both be clean and free of contaminants; otherwise contamination will spread and threaten the entire culture. High substrate temperatures should be anticipated on the second to third day after supplementation. With this type of nutrient enhancement yield increases of 1/2 - 2lbs/sq. ft. are possible."
That is from Paul Stamets and I take no credit for the above mentions and quoted section.
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 AMU Q & A thread
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Epilson Lyrae
Armed with hammers
Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 5,561
Loc: Woody Creek
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: just me]
#11234638 - 10/12/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the processes involved during colonization and fruiting. I am skeptical though that breaking up fully colonized substrate and exposing it to that much stress simply in order to amend the substrate could be that helpful. I do not doubt the sincerity of the OP nor am I arguing the point. However I was hoping for some clarity on the subject from the OP or others.
In a related note, I am seeing more often the addition of vegetable oil (?) to substrate mixes. This is something that I have missed in my research and wonder if the ideas are related in any fashion.
Perhaps I have simply missed this concept but I find it highly interesting.
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"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." H.T.
I've come to believe that the heart is the filter of the enlightened mind. Epilson Lyrae
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Epilson Lyrae
Armed with hammers
Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 5,561
Loc: Woody Creek
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
#11234644 - 10/12/09 05:42 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Your post beat mine to the topic while I was typing. Could you address my earlier post that lists a few questions specifically?
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"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." H.T.
I've come to believe that the heart is the filter of the enlightened mind. Epilson Lyrae
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just me
Friend
Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 9,745
Loc: IL/MO/FL/TX/HI/OR
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
#11234685 - 10/12/09 05:51 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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your first questions were answered by yourself
your next post/next question was answered by me. youre feeding the organism RIGHT b4 it thought it was going to fruit.
its like giving it a rail of coke b4 it dances 
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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-
"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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koopa_troopa
the fun guy
Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 388
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: just me]
#11240975 - 10/13/09 05:36 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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The links are not displaying correctly for some reason :/
put this phrase into google: Supplementation at casing ground soybean
click on the 2nd link entitled: Mushroom Science XI Proceedings... Click "View as HTML" or pubhort will not let you view the document!!
@RR theoretically yes and no.. I believe you may be referring to Super Spawning, which is simply used to increase the amount of colonized substrate. it does not have to be a casing per se that is only the terminology.. since casings are not required in cubes like they are for other species.
JustMe's got the right idea.. The point of all this is to not only restore some of the depleted nutrients from the substrate consumed during colonization but to also "super charge" the amount of nutrients available to the fruit bodies during pinning and growth.
During a few preliminary trials I have noticed that this allows more of the fruit bodies to mature than would normally be possible after a very crowded pin set. Typically after a huge pin set 1/3 to 1/2 the pins would abort due to the syphoning of resources from the substrate by the stronger fruits. But in my last grow where I SACed, almost all of the pins were able to reach maturity despite the number of pins exceeding the substrates usual capability to provide for.
I have a substrate that just finished the first flush and I may decide to say fuck it and attempt to SAC it....
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Koopa OutOfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars
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koopa_troopa
the fun guy
Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 388
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: koopa_troopa]
#11242342 - 10/13/09 08:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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@gngsteroflov: the method you listed (spawn to bulk, colonize, crumble & mix supplement, heal, fruit) is spot on.. I just harvested another tub of Oakridge which I did SACing on and although OR is typically a very small but abundant fruiter (not sure if this is typical with sub-cubes) but this flush was amazing with fruits 8+ inches the norm.. 5th time ive grown OR and 1st time ive seen it do anything close to large.. stay tuned pics soon!
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Koopa OutOfThisWorld,SmilingDownOnOurs: BirsdEyeView,NeverNewLife,PastsFastAsCars
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ratdog
wild capture trader
Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 959
Loc: Colorado mount. top
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Re: SACing (supplementation at casing) and variations of. Any Experience?? [Re: koopa_troopa]
#11242847 - 10/13/09 09:49 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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following
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some people just don't get it
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys
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