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Invisibledjmako7
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obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell
    #11226631 - 10/11/09 01:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/10/obama.gay.rights/index.html

Quote:

Obama called for the repeal of the ban on gays in the military -- the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.




Wow, what can I say besides our military is going to get a lot gayer.

what impact do you think this will have on the U.S. Military?


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OfflineCapHat
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11226637 - 10/11/09 01:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hahaha Oh thats why he gets a Nobel.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11226667 - 10/11/09 01:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think he will actually do so, but if he does, I will be surprised and satisfied.  Every day, gays fight in our military and perform admirably. 

There is no evidence, outside of anecdotal accounts, that this would negatively affect the United States armed forces.

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OfflineCollegeGuy
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CapHat]
    #11226677 - 10/11/09 01:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Personally I don't care if your gay or not but this will just cause problems. So, what you have to tell everyone your gay? and this will make everything better? I'm not really sure why he thinks this is a top issue. I think there is SOMETHING out there in the world that is more important.


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All posts from this account do not contain any factual or real events only ones that could happen.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CollegeGuy]
    #11226690 - 10/11/09 01:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Why would you HAVE to tell? That's not the issue.

The issue is that you should be ABLE to tell without being kicked out of the forces.

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11226713 - 10/11/09 01:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hey now that homosexuals have rights maybe us psychonauts can get some rights too!


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Invisibledjmako7
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11226727 - 10/11/09 01:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I don't think he will actually do so, but if he does, I will be surprised and satisfied.  Every day, gays fight in our military and perform admirably. 

There is no evidence, outside of anecdotal accounts, that this would negatively affect the United States armed forces.





You have not dealt with them first hand in training. I had one in my platoon who eventually got RSP'd because he couldn't handle it. His flamboyant nature was disruptive and hurt the platoon.

Don't get me wrong There were some guys that are gay that performed there duties perfectly. But orientation could limit some things such as harassment rights.

The problem that they might have are sexual relation problem. The vast majority of the military are Men. Can't mix pleasure with work.


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OfflineCollegeGuy
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11226728 - 10/11/09 01:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Wasn't this a Clinton law? Now being over turned by another liberal for not being liberal enough...before you know it the military will have to bend over back wards(no pun intended) to make sure gays get there equal rights, blah blah blah....


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11226773 - 10/11/09 02:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

djmako7 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
I don't think he will actually do so, but if he does, I will be surprised and satisfied.  Every day, gays fight in our military and perform admirably. 

There is no evidence, outside of anecdotal accounts, that this would negatively affect the United States armed forces.





You have not dealt with them first hand in training. I had one in my platoon who eventually got RSP'd because he couldn't handle it. His flamboyant nature was disruptive and hurt the platoon.

Don't get me wrong There were some guys that are gay that performed there duties perfectly. But orientation could limit some things such as harassment rights.

The problem that they might have are sexual relation problem. The vast majority of the military are Men. Can't mix pleasure with work.




If a gay man can't pass muster in training, he should be dismissed just as any straight man would be.

A gay man training at or above a satisfactory level, however, should not be dismissed.

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11227091 - 10/11/09 02:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I can't even imagine a gay person actually wanting to enlist in the first place...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Ginseng1]
    #11227191 - 10/11/09 03:07 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

> I can't even imagine a gay person actually wanting to enlist in the first place...

Why?  Gay people are immune to nationalism?


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InvisibleShins
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Seuss]
    #11227227 - 10/11/09 03:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

just make a special ops gay brigade where every soldier is gay,  then release them to assfuck the enemy to death.


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OfflineCapHat
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Seuss]
    #11227264 - 10/11/09 03:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Why does a queer have to tell, no one wanst to know or care about you liking it up the rear. That rule is not saying you cant be gay it says dont ask that question cuz it doesnt matter and dont tell so you can respect others who care less to know you drop the soap in the shower. Thats all I need in a war some queer coming up to me having to tell me hes queer so just in case i needed to know that. You around 10's of thousands of men who are grumpy tired and want to go home. If some queer needs to go and implant into the mens heads thats hes queer then hes got a bunch of men who now have to wonder if your looking at them cuz you had to go tell them cuz its your queer right. I dont hate gays, I just think they fucking stupid if they go to another country for war and tell a bunch of soldiers that there a willing queer if someone gets board.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CapHat]
    #11227469 - 10/11/09 03:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

It's too bad you can't discuss the topic at hand without resorting to the vocabulary of children. It would make it a bit easier for people to take you seriously.

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OfflineCapHat
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11227517 - 10/11/09 04:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Just because queer sounds tabo, doesnt make it. Queer is a word in the Dictionary and has no racial meaning meaning. Just cuz you dont like the way it sounds? Lets change black to dark cuz black people might find you saying they look black un educated. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

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OfflineCapHat
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CapHat]
    #11227564 - 10/11/09 04:06 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Homosexuality and queer are scientific terms used to identify. You can cover it up all you want with Gay.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CapHat]
    #11227627 - 10/11/09 04:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CapHat said:
Homosexuality and queer are scientific terms used to identify. You can cover it up all you want with Gay.




I would like you to show me where "queer" is used as a scientific term.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11227631 - 10/11/09 04:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Even the dictionary identifies it as disparaging and offensive slang.

Talk like an adult or be treated like a child.

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InvisibleKillerPicklez
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11227915 - 10/11/09 05:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

OBAMA WOOOOO!


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11227932 - 10/11/09 05:07 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Queer is a gay reclaimed word now.  Its A-OK to use queer around all the fags you want.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Shins]
    #11229261 - 10/11/09 08:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
just make a special ops gay brigade where every soldier is gay,  then release them to assfuck the enemy to death.




it's actually one of the best interrogation methods there is

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CapHat]
    #11229282 - 10/11/09 08:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CapHat said:
That rule is not saying you cant be gay it says dont ask that question cuz it doesnt matter and dont tell so you can respect others who care less to know you drop the soap in the shower. Thats all I need in a war some queer coming up to me having to tell me hes queer so just in case i needed to know that. You around 10's of thousands of men who are grumpy tired and want to go home. If some queer needs to go and implant into the mens heads thats hes queer then hes got a bunch of men who now have to wonder if your looking at them cuz you had to go tell them cuz its your queer right. I dont hate gays, I just think they fucking stupid if they go to another country for war and tell a bunch of soldiers that there a willing queer if someone gets board.




WTF are you even talking about?

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OfflineJT
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11229616 - 10/11/09 09:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

okay...ignoring caphats language i think he is actually right here. the don't ask don't tell system is the best solution because sexual orientation is an unnecessary distraction for soldiers in the battlefield. they can't start screening people for homosexuality and forming a "gay brigade" and creating two new bathroom/shower rooms everywhere (one for men, one for gay men, one for women, one for lesbian women). the best solution is to totally ignore it unless it become an issue, ie. "don't ask, don't tell."

showering together happens in the military, it's just part of the job. separating men from women is already enough of a hassle and leads to enough lawsuits. can you imagine the shit storm that would result if they had to separate homosexuals from the rest of the troops?

the government isn't blocking gays from serving in the military*. in fact, they are acknowledging that gays DO serve. this is the only way to protect both the gay and the straight troops rights.

*of course, like in any industry, there are surely homophobes who abuse the system - but what other option is there?

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OfflineCapHat
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Chespirito]
    #11229721 - 10/11/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well you have the right to tell so do I. Why cant you except me saying queer, its my rite. You saying Queers have the rite to say that their queer? Well Im saying then I have the rite to say what ever I want to describe as well. This is why the rule was put into affect because their are more strait men in the military then queer. And If you wana be able to have the rite to say what you want to people you better be able to except it back. The reason why that rule is in efeect is people cant just tune you aout and go some where else if they dont like it, there in war. Obviously many men have complained about having to hear some one is gay all the time and people have gotten hurt. Its always the gay guy too to say I was a hate crime. Well hello they told you they didnt want to hear it save it for when you get back home. Its not your rite to say your queer if it make every other soldier uncomfortable because they cant just go some other place your forcing them to hear it and that not a rite. A queer forcing another man to hear it so. LOL their in war they dont even have that freedom of speech and their not there to antagonize each other.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CapHat]
    #11231789 - 10/12/09 08:16 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Of course it's your right. It just makes you sound like an uneducated buffoon.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: JT]
    #11232066 - 10/12/09 09:46 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JT said:
okay...ignoring caphats language i think he is actually right here. the don't ask don't tell system is the best solution because sexual orientation is an unnecessary distraction for soldiers in the battlefield.




so discrimination is the standard and always should be, dont ask/dont
tell has put thousands out of the military that didnt tell, others
suspected, some had their personal effects searched by them and
discovered some 'evidence'... this argument really doesnt hold water
when you consider 22 of the 26 member nations of NATO have gays openly
serving including in special ops units, in the US there's tens of
thousands that are serving secretly and there's no issues with dropped soap

Quote:

the best solution is to totally ignore it unless it become an issue, ie. "don't ask, don't tell."







well guess what, it's been an issue for decades, one of discrimination,
where treating homosexuals as second class citizens is the norm


Quote:

showering together happens in the military, it's just part of the job. separating men from women is already enough of a hassle and leads to enough lawsuits.




I guess you dont see where those lawsuits stem from, women sued to be placed in combat roles because the military said they're incapable, they'd provide too much distraction... it seems these women in combat are performing better than the men

Quote:

can you imagine the shit storm that would result if they had to separate homosexuals from the rest of the troops? the government isn't blocking gays from serving in the military*






actually they are, as I mentioned, if it's discovered or even suspected,
they're discharged... some of these people have had distinguished
careers working right along side the blatantly heterosexual members

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CapHat]
    #11232108 - 10/12/09 09:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CapHat said:
The reason why that rule is in efeect is people cant just tune you aout and go some where else if they dont like it, there in war. Obviously many men have complained about having to hear some one is gay all the time and people have gotten hurt.





other than the 'queers', who's gotten hurt



Quote:

Its not your rite to say your queer if it make every other soldier uncomfortable because they cant just go some other place your forcing them to hear it and that not a rite. A queer forcing another man to hear it so. LOL their in war they dont even have that freedom of speech and their not there to antagonize each other.




I served with someone that was gay, he works as a cop now, the people he
works with now say the same thing I've said, there's no one I'd rather
have backing me up, he put his life on the line daily, never tossed it
in anyones face that he was gay as you're so adamant that he'd do, he
was a man that earned the respect from everyone he served with

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OfflineJT
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11234067 - 10/12/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

your arguments show how the system has been abused, which is what i was trying to get at. if people weren't actively seeking out and discriminating homosexuals in the military then the system would be ideal and it would work. it's the people that search through other people's stuff, digging into their personal life, etc., that fuck it up. the military is enforcing the "don't tell" part of the policy but not everyone is respecting the "don't ask" part.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: JT]
    #11234325 - 10/12/09 04:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

He makes an excellent point that I have never seen anyone address.  If gays in the military will make performance suffer, how can one explain all the the countries that allow gays in their armed forces?

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: JT]
    #11234412 - 10/12/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JT said:
your arguments show how the system has been abused, which is what i was trying to get at. if people weren't actively seeking out and discriminating homosexuals in the military then the system would be ideal and it would work. it's the people that search through other people's stuff, digging into their personal life, etc., that fuck it up. the military is enforcing the "don't tell" part of the policy but not everyone is respecting the "don't ask" part.





you mean like the way the navy was doing with Tim McVeigh?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_R._McVeigh

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11234464 - 10/12/09 05:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
He makes an excellent point that I have never seen anyone address.  If gays in the military will make performance suffer, how can one explain all the the countries that allow gays in their armed forces?




throughout history hays have served in many armies with distinction and
honor, many are heralded by the various cultures they were in as the most
vehement warriors they had

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11234959 - 10/12/09 06:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The best possible policy would be:

Who the hell cares what your orientation is / shut the fuck up about it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineJT
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11234976 - 10/12/09 06:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
you mean like the way the navy was doing with Tim McVeigh?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_R._McVeigh




yeah, the timothy mcveigh case is an excellent example.

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
throughout history hays have served in many armies with distinction and
honor, many are heralded by the various cultures they were in as the most
vehement warriors they had




you're right they have definitely proved their equality in combat throughout history. roman soldiers especially come to mind. wish i could remember the specific group we learned about in latin class, they were brutal.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: JT]
    #11235104 - 10/12/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JT said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
you mean like the way the navy was doing with Tim McVeigh?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_R._McVeigh




yeah, the timothy mcveigh case is an excellent example.




it's an excellent example of the norm if someone reports that they think you might be gay

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11235169 - 10/12/09 07:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I totally called it.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: xFrockx]
    #11236178 - 10/12/09 09:29 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

called what, that the public started calling obama on his bullshit, that
he was slipping so badly in the approval polls that he had to do something
drastic to build hi image back up?

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11236237 - 10/12/09 09:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
he was slipping so badly in the approval polls



Source?

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11236475 - 10/12/09 10:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Redstorm writes:

Quote:

If gays in the military will make performance suffer, how can one explain all the the countries that allow gays in their armed forces?




Not taking a stand on the "don't ask don't tell" issue one way or the other, but is that a serious question?

First of all, there are very few (arguably none) militaries one could plausibly claim match  the level of excellence of the US military, so one could argue the reason they are all worse than the US military is because they allow their gay members to be openly gay. Again, I personally don't necessarily believe that is the only reason they are worse than the US military, but it is not something an honest researcher would dismiss out of hand.

Second, it is one of those things that is inherently unknowable. In other words, today's openly gay German army has a level of performance equal to "X". You have no way of knowing that if they had the German version of "don't ask don't tell" the level of performance would remain at X. It could very well jump to 1.2X or 1.4X or maybe even 2X.

And finally, there is your implied assumption that just because a government decides something is a smart policy, it really is a smart policy. Why you would believe such a thing which flies in the face of all evidence (demonstrated quite literally daily by at least one government somewhere in the world) baffles the living hell outta me.




Phred


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11236725 - 10/12/09 10:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And finally, there is your implied assumption that just because a government decides something is a smart policy, it really is a smart policy.


 
Fair enough but the implied assumption that "don't ask don't tell" works has the same underlying assumption doesn't it?

Quote:

so one could argue the reason they are all worse than the US military is because they allow their gay members to be openly gay.




In fairness the question is not which country has the greatest military, the question is can an openly gay member of the military serve with distinction, and to the benefit of the unit he is in.  We can look at other units and see whether ones with openly gay members are successful.  Since other countries have the same interest of having an effective military, since they do employ gay service men and woman, then the answer would suggest they yes they can.

On a personal note I am thrilled that DADT might be revoked.  I have known several people in the military who have been outed and received or are in the process of receiving a dishonorable discharge because of it. 

More over it is blatantly discriminatory.  Straight service men are able to talk about a variety of sexual explicit experiences with impunity.  But God forbid a gay man even suggest that he might be gay. 

Does the possibility exist that some service members might be unconformable with an out gay person?  Yes, but I don't think that would even compare to the dread of knowing that if WHO YOU ARE ever comes to light that you will be dishonorably discharged with no regard for you service record, standing, conduct, etc.


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Chespirito]
    #11236895 - 10/12/09 11:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
he was slipping so badly in the approval polls



Source?




http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11237113 - 10/13/09 12:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
He makes an excellent point that I have never seen anyone address.  If gays in the military will make performance suffer, how can one explain all the the countries that allow gays in their armed forces?




throughout history hays have served in many armies with distinction and
honor, many are heralded by the various cultures they were in as the most
vehement warriors they had





Because back then guys were like this right?



Men were not flameboyant even 100 years ago. It was looked down on so men acted as if they were straight. They continued to keep their wrists straight, have a deep voice and had more discipline. IMO history is a bad example when it comes to gays then compared to now.


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11237381 - 10/13/09 01:11 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

rome outlawed marriage for soldiers, they were openly homosexual,
they and their little love slaves were even written about in the bible


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11237392 - 10/13/09 01:15 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

And walking around saying your guy to soldiers in war totally intelligent.
I wonder the queer who got beat up , I wonder how intelligent he felt in the hospital.

Edited by CapHat (10/13/09 01:15 AM)

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CapHat]
    #11237406 - 10/13/09 01:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

why do you assume that all homosexuals are flamers and going to prance
around a battle field in a tutu proclaiming their sexuality?
do you also believe they'll bend over for the enemy in order to distract
them from the fighting? I could see that as a sure battle winner

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11237645 - 10/13/09 02:36 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
why do you assume that all homosexuals are flamers




The majority of fags are and I could care less about them. maybe all gay people should enlist. It should be a requirement to get married to there gay lover.


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11237984 - 10/13/09 06:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

djmako7 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
why do you assume that all homosexuals are flamers




The majority of fags are





lol... that's quite the uninformed opinion... tell us about shooting 2 miles again

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11238356 - 10/13/09 09:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

djmako7 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
He makes an excellent point that I have never seen anyone address.  If gays in the military will make performance suffer, how can one explain all the the countries that allow gays in their armed forces?




throughout history hays have served in many armies with distinction and
honor, many are heralded by the various cultures they were in as the most
vehement warriors they had





Because back then guys were like this right?



Men were not flameboyant even 100 years ago. It was looked down on so men acted as if they were straight. They continued to keep their wrists straight, have a deep voice and had more discipline. IMO history is a bad example when it comes to gays then compared to now.




Do you honestly think gays who look and act like this will enlist in the military?

Not all gays are sissies.

I don't think it will do any good to try explaining this to you, though. You're clearly set in your primitive ways.

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11238388 - 10/13/09 09:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

First of all, there are very few (arguably none) militaries one could plausibly claim match  the level of excellence of the US military, so one could argue the reason they are all worse than the US military is because they allow their gay members to be openly gay.




One could claim this, but they would be at risk of sounding monumentally stupid.  Note that no other country can even begin to match the size of the US defense budget, either.  Methinks that may have a bit more to do with the supposed success of our military.

Quote:


Second, it is one of those things that is inherently unknowable. In other words, today's openly gay German army has a level of performance equal to "X". You have no way of knowing that if they had the German version of "don't ask don't tell" the level of performance would remain at X. It could very well jump to 1.2X or 1.4X or maybe even 2X.




Of course I don't know that. It's not as if I'm doing a quantitative research project on the topic. I'm making a forum post.

I was more stating that the fact that there is not widespread dissent or huge effectiveness problems springing up in the militaries shows that the issue is more in people's heads than in reality.

Quote:



And finally, there is your implied assumption that just because a government decides something is a smart policy, it really is a smart policy. Why you would believe such a thing which flies in the face of all evidence (demonstrated quite literally daily by at least one government somewhere in the world) baffles the living hell outta me.




I never claimed it was smart policy before, though I think it is. I'm not sure how dismissing enlisted individuals, particularly extremely talented and valuable individuals (ex. Dan Choi) can be a smart policy.

In addition, we're talking about the United States. Due to its Constitution, whether a decision is smart or not is not always relevant. Right always trumps smart.

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11238759 - 10/13/09 10:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

djmako7 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
why do you assume that all homosexuals are flamers




The majority of fags are





lol... that's quite the uninformed opinion... tell us about shooting 2 miles again




with a sniper rifle yeah and that is what I said too. To bad you let your stupidity get in the way of rational reason. If you dont believe a sniper rifle has a range like that go google it then since most of you rely on it for your information.


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11238803 - 10/13/09 11:09 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

To bad you let your stupidity get in the way of rational reason.





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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: djmako7]
    #11238867 - 10/13/09 11:24 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

just an fyi, the longest recorded sniper kill was by a Canadian in Afganistan with a .50 BMG rifle, at 2430m.

Thats 1.5 miles, not 2.  Hurray for google, eh?


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Minstrel]
    #11238987 - 10/13/09 11:46 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think everybody's sexuality in all walks of life should be "Don't ask, don't tell."  This whole pile of bullshit just annoys me.  Homosexuals feel compelled to announce their status and other idiots feel compelled to be disgusted by it.  The whole pile of stupidity bores the anal plug right out of me.  SHUT THE FUCK UP I DON'T CARE WHO YOU FUCK AS LONG AS I DON'T HAVE TO WATCH.


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11241148 - 10/13/09 05:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Redstorm writes:

Quote:

One could claim this, but they would be at risk of sounding monumentally stupid.




Hardly. The US military kicks ass in comparison to the others not just because it has the most technologically advanced equipment, but because it also has the best training and excellent morale. It is, unlike so many other armies around the world, a 100% volunteer military.

A huge part of morale is being comfortable with your squadmates. Clearly it is not a "monumentally stupid" hypothesis to attribute at least some of the superior kick-assness of the US military to the comfort its members have with each other. One may reasonably debate about the degree to which DADT contributes to that comfort, but it would be monumentally stupid to pretend that it contributes nothing at all.

Quote:

I was more stating that the fact that there is not widespread dissent or huge effectiveness problems springing up in the militaries shows that the issue is more in people's heads than in reality.




So that's the bar we must hurdle? It must reach the point of "widespread dissent" (which actually means widely reported dissent) and/or a "huge" barrier to effectiveness before it can be shown not to be imaginary? If you say so, dude.

Quote:

In addition, we're talking about the United States. Due to its Constitution, whether a decision is smart or not is not always relevant.




I consider myself a better-than-average student of the US Constitution, even though I am myself not an American. But I have to admit I missed the section of the Constitution which forbids the federal government from setting the code of conduct  of those citizens it selects to serve in its standing army.



Phred


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: CollegeGuy]
    #11241300 - 10/13/09 06:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CollegeGuy said:
Wasn't this a Clinton law? Now being over turned by another liberal for not being liberal enough...before you know it the military will have to bend over back wards(no pun intended) to make sure gays get there equal rights, blah blah blah....





You're clearly either a closet homophobe or just blindly hate anything associated with being liberal, uhh may I ask WTF is wrong with you?


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11241993 - 10/13/09 07:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

A huge part of morale is being comfortable with your squadmates. Clearly it is not a "monumentally stupid" hypothesis to attribute at least some of the superior kick-assness of the US military to the comfort its members have with each other. One may reasonably debate about the degree to which DADT contributes to that comfort, but it would be monumentally stupid to pretend that it contributes nothing at all.



So basically what you are saying is that you know for a fact that the majority of enlistees are homophobes? Cause if that's not the case then your argument all but completely falls apart.

Quote:

So that's the bar we must hurdle? It must reach the point of "widespread dissent" (which actually means widely reported dissent) and/or a "huge" barrier to effectiveness before it can be shown not to be imaginary? If you say so, dude.



What hes saying is these so-called problems are virtually unreported or possibly don't ever occur.


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11242163 - 10/13/09 08:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The US military kicks ass in comparison to the others not just because it has the most technologically advanced equipment, but because it has the best training and excellent morale.




I'm going to need a source for this.

Quote:


So that's the bar we must hurdle? It must reach the point of "widespread dissent" (which actually means widely reported dissent) and/or a "huge" barrier to effectiveness before it can be shown not to be imaginary? If you say so, dude.




Well, showing any dissent or effectiveness issues in militaries where gays are allowed to openly allowed to serve would help, chief.

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: mozhual]
    #11270917 - 10/18/09 11:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So basically what you are saying is that you know for a fact that the majority of enlistees are homophobes? Cause if that's not the case then your argument all but completely falls apart.




You clearly have no understanding of either argumentation or of the special nature of military life. No, it isn't necessary for the majority of enlistees to be homophobes, it is only necessary for there to be a cause of tension in units. One such cause would be the open acknowledgement of homosexual orientation. Would it bother every single member of every single unit? Of course not. But it doesn't have to reach that level of pervasiveness in order to be a morale problem.

The thing is, you are arguing this not from the point of view of GI Joe, but of Joe Average Citizen. You forget that GI Joe (in general) has a different psychological makeup than that of Joe Average Citizen (in general), which is why he tended to gravitate towards the military in the first place rather than, say, consumer electronics marketing or whatever. A survey of military personnel's attitudes to various societal issues will differ significantly with the attitudes of the general public. As just one example of this difference, no one is surprised that the US military votes Republican in much, MUCH higher numbers than the US public. Why then, do so many people so strenuously deny that young, callow, hormone-laden macho showoffs are every bit as enlightened in their attitudes towards "homos" as your average tenured college prof? They sure as hell weren't that enlightened just six months earlier in high school.

In many ways, DADT was one of Congress's better ideas. You're gay? No problem. Enlist anyway, just don't brag about it.

Anyone who joins the US military voluntarily sets aside certain of their normal day-to-day rights for the term of their enlistment. In this case, advertising one's sexual orientation - or inquiring into the sexual orientation of others - is just another in a fairly lengthy list. You will note I do not necessarily say that each and every one of the rights on that list should be set aside for the term of the enlistment - there have been ongoing debates about pretty much every one of them for as long as there has been a military. I merely point out that the voluntary setting-aside of many rights one enjoys in civilian life is a reality.

It can be argued that the effect on unit morale may be small enough to put up with in the interest of complete realization of "sexual rights" in the US military, but it cannot be honestly argued that there is no effect at all.




Phred


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11270995 - 10/18/09 12:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'm going to need a source for this.




Read a few of the more prominent Milblogs, or talk to a career US military man. Or read the comments of foreign allied troops who participate in war games and joint training exercises with the US military. Even the Israelis are impressed at the level of training that is the norm for the US military.

Quote:

Well, showing any dissent or effectiveness issues in militaries where gays are allowed to openly allowed to serve would help, chief.




A difficult task, since as you are well aware, the restrictions on military personnel talking to the press are not a peculiarity of the US alone. And it's not like someone who decided not to re-enlist in the French Navy because he felt uncomfortable around his gay crewmates is going to run to Le Monde immediately after his discharge and spill his guts, thus advertising his intolerance to an entire country. As for effectiveness, this again is something that is ultimately unknowable, at least to a precisely quantifiable number. However, anyone who has ever spent any time in the military or even just listening to military personnel shoot the shit already knows that camaraderie among unit members is a real boost to morale, hence to effectiveness. Anything which diminishes that camaraderie necessarily therefore diminishes that effectiveness.

Again, it can be argued that the  loss of X amount of military effectiveness (where the precise magnitude of X is unknown and unknowable) is worth sacrificing in order to accommodate gays who wish to talk about their gayness. But to pretend that X is equal to zero is not an intellectually honest position to hold. It flies in the face of everything we know about human psychology. It is wishful thinking.




Phred


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11271136 - 10/18/09 12:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

So, anecdotal evidence and a skirting around the question?

Quite an impressive response.

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11271205 - 10/18/09 12:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

So, dodging of common sense? Not up to your usual standards, Red.

It is the height of dishonesty to pretend the psychological makeup of those drawn to service in the military is equal to the psychological makeup of those drawn to post on a drug board. For you to argue that because the majority of posters at The Shroomery profess to not not being uncomfortable at all working (and sleeping) cheek to jowl with gay folks, those who enlist in the military have the same attitude. The fact of the matter is - as anyone who has any familiarity with military life will confirm - the comfort level with open homosexuality possessed by the average grunt is lower than that of the average college student.

Is there a double-blind controlled clinical study out there somewhere with percentages of military vs non-military cross-correlated to discomfort with open homosexuality? Fucked if I know. I am going on my own experience as a military brat who grew up on an endless succession of military bases. I don't need a survey to tell me what anyone with even a passing bit of familiarity with military culture knows already.

For you to try to claim the average Army corporal is as tolerant in that area as you are is as absurd as me trying to claim the average cop is as tolerant of dope smoking skaters as you are. But I doubt anyone here would press you for a double-blind controlled clinical study of cops on that issue.





Phred


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11271349 - 10/18/09 01:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think we should get rid of DADT. In fact, I think it should be expanded to cover heterosexuals, so as to give equal rights to gay and straight military personnel. Meaning that people in the military should not be allowed to advertise or discuss their sexuality at all.

So basically, if a member of the military is discovered to have committed heterosexual acts before joining the military, they would receive a general discharge, and if they are discovered to have committed a heterosexual act while in the military, they would receive an undesirable discharge.

As far as the "don't ask" part, superiors should not be allowed to investigate a service member's sexual activity, unless of course,  they suspect that the member may be sexually oriented.


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11271373 - 10/18/09 01:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The question is whether or not an individual is as tolerant as you or I. The question is whether they are tolerant enough to perform their duty in a satisfactory manner.

You say you know from personal experience and common sense that this is not the case, but those two sources are far from inscrutable. In fact, it seems to fly in the face of several other militaries.

In addition, you say that the superiority of the US military is due to the morale and other intangibles drawing from being comfortable in their service, rather than enormous expenditures. I'm not sure this is supported by anything outside of opinion. It surely is not intuitive.

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11271532 - 10/18/09 02:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Do "military grunts" think serving alongside open homosexuals is fundamentally disagreeable to the extent they're willing to go on foot patrols in Baghdad without the recommended Arabic translation? When a hundred translators have been expelled from the armed services for being gay, that seems to be a real, tangible effect.

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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11276721 - 10/19/09 11:40 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The question is whether they are tolerant enough to perform their duty in a satisfactory manner.




But that's just it - it isn't the question at all. The idea is not just to achieve "satisfactory", but to achieve excellence. "Satisfactory" performance is all right to aim for when it comes to restocking the shelves of a grocery store on the night shift. Combat is an entirely different scenario. That is the whole point of the endless training and drills and re-training combat units undergo - to achieve the closest thing possible to perfection, not to come out of it with a "satisfactory" ribbon.

And of course, there is always the question of what it takes to be branded "satisfactory". I doubt anyone here believes the designation is identical in all militaries worldwide. "Satisfactory" in Chad is not the same as "satisfactory" in the US.

Everything the military does is designed to give it an edge over the enemy - from more powerful weaponry to better communications to using GPS units rather than Boy Scout compasses.

Here's a thought experiment for you - do you believe the Egyptian Army would operate better or worse with a few openly gay officers in charge of key combat units? How about the Iranian Republican Guard?

Quote:

In fact, it seems to fly in the face of several other militaries.




Name one, and list for us the reasons you believe it deserves to be named.

Quote:

In addition, you say that the superiority of the US military is due to the morale and other intangibles drawing from being comfortable in their service, rather than enormous expenditures.




The reason? As in the only reason? Please point out to the readers where I have said that. However, superiority on the battlefield is achieved through incremental advances in many areas, equipment levels being just one of them.

Again, I suggest you check out some of the milblogs for accounts of joint training exercises/war games between US military units and their allies, where the essential difference between the two is limited to one side being called "Red Team" and one side "Blue Team". In these exercises the only "enormous expenditures" involved is the cost of the training the participants received.




Phred


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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11278053 - 10/19/09 03:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

You claimed this:

Quote:


Hardly. The US military kicks ass in comparison to the others not just because it has the most technologically advanced equipment, but because it also has the best training and excellent morale.




You then backed it up with your irrelevant personal experiences and "rock solid" common sense. How do you expect me to respond?

Quote:


But that's just it - it isn't the question at all. The idea is not just to achieve "satisfactory", but to achieve excellence. "Satisfactory" performance is all right to aim for when it comes to restocking the shelves of a grocery store on the night shift. Combat is an entirely different scenario. That is the whole point of the endless training and drills and re-training combat units undergo - to achieve the closest thing possible to perfection, not to come out of it with a "satisfactory" ribbon.

And of course, there is always the question of what it takes to be branded "satisfactory". I doubt anyone here believes the designation is identical in all militaries worldwide. "Satisfactory" in Chad is not the same as "satisfactory" in the US.




Not that this damages my argument, but it was a miswording on my own part. The question is whether they can perform their duty in a manner which exudes excellence.  Once again, I'm positive you can not show that gays being in the military will decrease this excellence in any substantial (or even marginally substantial) except by your common sense reasons.

Quote:

Here's a thought experiment for you - do you believe the Egyptian Army would operate better or worse with a few openly gay officers in charge of key combat units? How about the Iranian Republican Guard?




I'm not sure what you are trying to do with this one. Are you indicating the lack of tolerance towards homosexuals in the Middle East? Duh. We're not talking about repressive, autocratic countries, though. We are talking about the Unite States.

Quote:

Name one, and list for us the reasons you believe it deserves to be named.




Germany, who has served admirably in the Iraq war.

The United Kingdom, who has served admirably in the Iraq War.

Israel, who has repelled attack after attack of superior numbers.

After the United States, China, Russia, and maybe India, UK and Germany are easily the next most powerful militaries on Earth.

Quote:


The reason? As in the only reason? Please point out to the readers where I have said that. However, superiority on the battlefield is achieved through incremental advances in many areas, equipment levels being just one of them.




See the quote above.  I didn't see you qualify your statement. You spoke in absolutes.

Quote:

Again, I suggest you check out some of the milblogs for accounts of joint training exercises/war games between US military units and their allies, where the essential difference between the two is limited to one side being called "Red Team" and one side "Blue Team". In these exercises the only "enormous expenditures" involved is the cost of the training the participants received.





I read Small Wars Journal and Abu Maqawama almost everyday. If you could point me towards one of them that occurred recently, though, I would be interested.  The last I read about was the NATO one during the summer.

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OfflinePhred
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Posts: 12,949
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Redstorm]
    #11278620 - 10/19/09 04:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You claimed this:



Quote:

Hardly. The US military kicks ass in comparison to the others not just because it has the most technologically advanced equipment, but because it also has the best training and excellent morale.




You then backed it up with your irrelevant personal experiences and "rock solid" common sense. How do you expect me to respond?





Take note of the bolded qualifiers. And how can any honest debater claim that actually spending two decades in the very midst of military personnel and their families is somehow "irrelevant"? I interacted with military people and relatives of military people who understood the military ethos full well literally every day for the first two decades of my life. I have no delusions when it comes to the strengths and weaknesses of the military personality.

My grasp of military culture is not that of some anthropology student writing a term paper, but that of a military "dependent" (as the wife and kids are called). I lived on a succession of military bases. Many of the schools I attended were on military bases. Nearly all my friends had fathers in the military. Most of the kids I went to school with had fathers in the military.

So when I say that a unit member being openly gay would create tension in many (not all, perhaps) units to the point of lowering unit morale, I am not saying it to be argumentative or even saying it out of theory, I am saying it because that is what actually happens. Again, one can argue over just how serious an effect this has on performance, but one cannot honestly argue there is no effect.

Quote:

The question is whether they can perform their duty in a manner which exudes excellence.  Once again, I'm positive you can not show that gays being in the military will decrease this excellence in any substantial (or even marginally substantial) except by your common sense reasons.




So because neither of us can find a double-blind clinical study anywhere on the internet addressing the issue we must discard common sense and personal experience? Get real.

You are not addressing the issue. The issue is not about gays being in the military. They are in the military.  This is not a subtle distinction, by the way. DADT does not say gays may not serve in the military, it details the terms under which they (and their squadmates - that is the "don't ask" part of DADT) may serve.

Quote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to do with this one. Are you indicating the lack of tolerance towards homosexuals in the Middle East? Duh. We're not talking about repressive, autocratic countries, though. We are talking about the Unite States.




I'm asking you to think through your assumption that "of course being openly gay isn't going to cause problems". Clearly it would - depending on the audience. No one has difficulty imagining the difficulties when the audience is a bunch of Egyptians or Iranians. Their culture is not real fond of gays. But that is also true of the culture of a substantial number of folks drawn to the military lifestyle. Yes, even in America. The America where even in what is arguably the most liberal state in the union, California, a measure like Proposition Eight is passed with ease.

Quote:

Germany, who has served admirably in the Iraq war.




And your reason for believing they would not have done an even better job had they they their own version of DADT?

Quote:

The United Kingdom, who has served admirably in the Iraq War.




And your reason for believing they would not have done an even better job had they they their own version of DADT?

Quote:

Israel, who has repelled attack after attack of superior numbers.




The existential situation of Israel's armed forces is quite different, but even so, what reason do you have for believing they would not do an even better job had they they their own version of DADT?

Quote:

I didn't see you qualify your statement. You spoke in absolutes.




Again:

"The US military kicks ass in comparison to the others not just because it has the most technologically advanced equipment, but because it also has the best training and excellent morale. "





Phred


--------------------

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OfflineArose Chaos
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Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 769
Loc: West Coast
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Phred]
    #11284507 - 10/20/09 02:07 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

As i'm in the military myself, I don't think DADT should be removed.
People on the outside don't know... You have to be in to understand. IMO it would completely destroy unit cohesion, the idea of someone being gay in my platoon is, for me, unacceptable. The military is a large group of mostly male, very republican, clint eastwood type of people. It's not that I don't believe gays can fight or feel nationalism, it's that you have to trust the men to your left and right with your very life, and again, the idea of that someone secretly wanting to fuck me in the ass? No. fucking. way.


--------------------
<<WOW
"There is nofhing noble in being superior to your fellow man;
true nobility is being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
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Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Arose Chaos]
    #11285770 - 10/20/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

arosechaos said:
As i'm in the military myself, I don't think DADT should be removed.
People on the outside don't know... You have to be in to understand. IMO it would completely destroy unit cohesion, the idea of someone being gay in my platoon is, for me, unacceptable. The military is a large group of mostly male, very republican, clint eastwood type of people. It's not that I don't believe gays can fight or feel nationalism, it's that you have to trust the men to your left and right with your very life, and again, the idea of that someone secretly wanting to fuck me in the ass? No. fucking. way.





so it's your homophobia that wants you to keep it in place, if DADT is
in place it doesnt stop a homosexual from enlisting and it doesnt
prevent them from secretly lusting for your butt, hell if the guy was in
love with you you'd think he be more eager to keep you alive so he
doesnt have to screw your corpse

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11290468 - 10/21/09 06:42 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
you'd think he be more eager to keep you alive so he
doesnt have to screw your corpse




Not that there's anything wrong with that!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineIssun
Night Elf
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Registered: 09/04/09
Posts: 43
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: obama to eliminate don't ask don't tell [Re: Chespirito]
    #11299303 - 10/22/09 12:42 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Nationalism and patriotism  are mental disorder, it matters not if you are a believer or not. The only true end is a Fascist debate at the BBC. Yes lets focus on real issues. A marine once said he prioritized his duty first to country, then God and Family. I disagree.

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