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OfflineGunboat
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Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 173
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1120976 - 12/08/02 01:49 AM (19 years, 5 days ago)

Like the title of the Hunter Thompson book...

Fear & Loathing in America.


--------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people."
- J. Danforth Quayle


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1121567 - 12/08/02 05:41 AM (19 years, 5 days ago)

There is not a legitimate use for an F-16 or an attack helicopter, by a normal citizen..

Depends what you call legitimate. I hear a lot of talk from the NRA that the reason people have guns is to "stop tyrants" or to "stop the US being invaded". Clearly if this is a valid reason then you are going to need far more than a saturday night special to fend off the american air force. If it isn't legitimate to have a weapon that would actually be of some use in fighting off an army then it clearly isn't legitimate to have a .38 (which would be of no use whatsoever).

Work it on down the line. Would you equp every citizen with mortar grenades for example? Anti-tank launchers? What if your house is attacked by a gang of burglars? What weapon do you consider too dangerous too issue to everyone?

have access to REASONABLE weapons

So you agree that for all other weapons except rifles my argument is perfectly valid. You don't give people access to dangerous weapons. Why do you classify rifles as distinct from other weapons? After all as you say they are only "tools". A surface to air missile launcher isn't going to jump off the table and fire itself is it.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
    #1121691 - 12/08/02 09:15 AM (19 years, 5 days ago)


There is not a legitimate use for an F-16 or an attack helicopter, by a normal citizen..


Depends what you call legitimate.


We as a a society have to determine what are reasonable weapons for
the general law-abiding population to have. In my opinion, people with no
history of violence or mental illness, should have access to rifles, shotguns, and
handguns for sporting and personal protection reasons


I hear a lot of talk from the NRA that the reason people have guns is to "stop tyrants" or to "stop the US being invaded".


You are referring to wacko right-wing extremists. The kind of people who think
that the UN is trying to take over the world, etc.. They are not indicative of
the average gun owner's concerns.


Work it on down the line. Would you equp every citizen with mortar grenades for example? Anti-tank launchers? What if your house is attacked by a gang of burglars? What weapon do you consider too dangerous too issue to everyone?


I don't think guns should be issued to people. I think responsible people should
have access to them however.


have access to REASONABLE weapons


So you agree that for all other weapons except rifles my argument is perfectly valid. You don't give people access to dangerous weapons. Why do you classify rifles as distinct from other weapons? After all as you say they are only "tools". A surface to air missile launcher isn't going to jump off the table and fire itself is it.


Democracy is a delicate balancing act of trying to protect the general population,
while trying to respect the freedoms of individual people.

As I said before, we must decide what weapons should be available and what
ones shouldn't be. We must decide what restrictions we should have on
the legal weapons, and what kind of qualifications should be in place in order to obtain them.

There will always be people who commit crimes. We must not allow these loathesome and irresponsible people to dictate what freedoms we have or don't have in our lives.


RandalFlagg


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #1144212 - 12/15/02 08:49 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I wathced it tonight, I really enjoyed the film(but hey Canadians love anything that even mentions us on T.V or in movies :grin: )

He does a great job raising unanswered questions, it seems a lot of people would like to keep them that way.People don't like him but all he does is go up to them and address what happened.
Anybody who is angered by the movie is just being silly. He doens't do any manipulation of facts, during the Dick Clark thing he kinda lost me a bit and he still didn't tie that up with a nice bow.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1174437 - 12/27/02 11:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I wathced it tonight, I really enjoyed the film(but hey Canadians love anything that even mentions us on T.V or in movies :grin: )

He does a great job raising unanswered questions, it seems a lot of people would like to keep them that way.People don't like him but all he does is go up to them and address what happened.
Anybody who is angered by the movie is just being silly. He doens't do any manipulation of facts, during the Dick Clark thing he kinda lost me a bit and he still didn't tie that up with a nice bow. 




I just watched it tonight myself, and as per usual Michael Moore does a wonderfull job taking a unique look at the mentallity behind all the violence.

I don't think removing all guns is a solution, I'm for gun ownership within reasonable limits. I mean really the issue is for after watching the movie is simply the horrible media that sensationalizes news in such a manner as to invoke fear and of course ratings...

The element of fear in America and mis-trust of everyone you live near creates a definate enviornment that obviously is a big part of violence...

I think that capitalism is a bad idea in its pure form, because the attitude that its me, me, me, me, only makes things worse... I mean what happened to ideals like concern for your fellow man, compassion, fellowship...

I think the world see's America as a great vision that has been going astray.. I wish more American's could see this point of the current American society becoming a failed experiment.

But great film, I really hope a lot of people get to see it.

 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1174528 - 12/28/02 02:15 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are referring to wacko right-wing extremists

True, true. I've heard pinkie, luvvie, inny come out with it on this board. And a few others.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
    #1176713 - 12/29/02 08:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

about colombine......
Hmm if it was me, and I was a depressed goth child looking for attention, I'd DEFINATELY think twice about walking into a school where I knew that at least 1 out of five teachers had a safe with a gun in it. Am I wrong here?
Can all of you cun control freaks just stop and think about it before you blurt out (yes blurt) heh "arming so&so is not the answer."?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: joeshitragpicker]
    #1176727 - 12/29/02 08:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Advocates of gun control for the most part mean well but don't think very hard. They wish for a society where we all love one another, governments are pure of thought and deed, and we're all just one big happy family.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineZimzum
old wanker

Registered: 04/17/99
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Loc: Sweden
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1177299 - 12/29/02 01:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You are referring to wacko right-wing extremists. The kind of people who think
that the UN is trying to take over the world, etc.. They are not indicative of
the average gun owner's concerns.



Quote:

I don't think guns should be issued to people. I think responsible people should
have access to them however.

have access to REASONABLE weapons




I think the militia (...the whole purpose of the second amendment) needs unreasonable weapons too, if to be of any use but for target pracrice.

Z


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Registered: 07/10/99
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: joeshitragpicker]
    #1177321 - 12/29/02 01:28 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

about colombine......
Hmm if it was me, and I was a depressed goth child looking for attention, I'd DEFINATELY think twice about walking into a school where I knew that at least 1 out of five teachers had a safe with a gun in it. Am I wrong here?
Can all of you cun control freaks just stop and think about it before you blurt out (yes blurt) heh "arming so&so is not the answer."?




Don't forget these guys shot themselves too, that was as premeditated as the original shootings I beleive(as oppsed to getting surprised that cops showed up and deciding to end it all). THe upside is it may have ended quicker, but I don't think it would have changed there decision to do it since dying was part of the plan.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1177331 - 12/29/02 01:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Advocates of gun control for the most part mean well but don't think very hard. They wish for a society where we all love one another, governments are pure of thought and deed, and we're all just one big happy family.




No, just most of us want to know why it is that the US citizens tend to shoot each other way more than any other country. Some people say its the sheer number of guns, but I think the truth lies more in the middle.

Removing guns isn't the solution, maybe actually enforcing the laws better would be a start.. BUT, what I loved about bowling for columbine is how the argument can be made that the US has this atmosphere of fear in the media and thus of course in the population.

The US Media is so much for scare tactics and getting ratings by being dramatic.

For me that was the point that struck me the most, is that the mentality of each citizen on their own without any support, and the fact that the society is all about competition, greed, fame, etc.. It seems to me that the US creates gun violence by having a society bent on caring little about its fellow man.

For those who think comparing to Canada was unfair or something like that, then the same comparison could be made the Great Britain, Germany, France, Sweden, Australia, etc..

The fact remains that a society that doesn't do anything for their poor seems to have problems with violence because of that.. People who have nothing to lose are quick to violence and crime..

I mean a country as wealthy as the US should have universal health care and a support system for unemployed and welfare cases...

As patriotic as americans are, what is truly interesting is how little they care for each other.. Its all about selfishness, greed, etc...

So that would go a long way to explaining why it is that there is so much more gun violence as compared to say Canada that has 7 million households out of 10 million families that have guns...

Its all Attitude that is the problem, the US citizen has a vastly different attitude that most other western countries don't..

You can argue its better than everywhere else, but for me its worse.. I came from a socialist country (Iceland) where you can't find a bum, to Canada where I think the system is much better than the overly socialistic Iceland system.

I think Canada is pretty close to being top notch for a way a country should be run, BUT, the big problem is to fix the current healthcare system so that it can again become the envy of many western nations.

The reason the US is the focus of criticism, well that simply because the US is in the spotlight all the time, the US has interests everywhere in this world and its hard not to notice things the US is doing wrong..



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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
    #1177367 - 12/29/02 01:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The fear thing seems very real. The guy from Southpark put it together pretty well. Basically you're told if ya fuck up now you're fucked for life. Anybody being constantly bombarded with this kind of thing would be worried( I have been, when the news say that terrorists are gonna target the seattle space needle with god knows what I get worried).
I liked the guy who was asked what an intruder looked like and he started pointing at everybody around him, that's paranoia. I'd rather get robbed at gun pount by a 90 year old lady than worry about it all the time.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1177561 - 12/29/02 03:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The fear thing seems very real. The guy from Southpark put it together pretty well. Basically you're told if ya fuck up now you're fucked for life. Anybody being constantly bombarded with this kind of thing would be worried( I have been, when the news say that terrorists are gonna target the seattle space needle with god knows what I get worried).
I liked the guy who was asked what an intruder looked like and he started pointing at everybody around him, that's paranoia. I'd rather get robbed at gun pount by a 90 year old lady than worry about it all the time.




I think the media in the US has to shoulder much of the blame for that enviornment of fear.

Like the child abduction scare, now every parent is freaked out even though statistics show that abductions are on the decline.

But when you watch everynews station covering a child abduction case 24hrs a day; then yeah it puts fear in the population.

I think the media has to be more responsible on how it tries to get ratings through sensationalism and fear.

Accountability is needed.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
    #1177620 - 12/29/02 03:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)


No, just most of us want to know why it is that the US citizens tend to shoot
each other way more than any other country. Some people say its the sheer
number of guns, but I think the truth lies more in the middle.

I think it has more to do with the fact that there is a huge mix of different types
of people from different cultures and backgrounds in America. Differences
breed distrust and envy.


Removing guns isn't the solution, maybe actually enforcing the laws better
would be a start..

I could not have said it better myself.


The US Media is so much for scare tactics and getting ratings by being
dramatic.

Aren't other countries like this too? Isn't their news often slanted towards the
eye-catching and the dramatic?


For me that was the point that struck me the most, is that the mentality of
each citizen on their own without any support, and the fact that the society
is all about competition, greed, fame, etc..

When you give people the freedom to be selfish, they will act selfishly at times.


The fact remains that a society that doesn't do anything for their poor seems
to have problems with violence because of that.. People who have nothing to
lose are quick to violence and crime..

America does tons of stuff for it's poor: Public housing, welfare, food stamps,
medicaid, etc..


As patriotic as americans are, what is truly interesting is how little they care
for each other.. Its all about selfishness, greed, etc...

That is a stereotype.


RandalFlagg


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1177675 - 12/29/02 04:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The movie addressed all those Randal:
Canada and U,K have as much ethnicity differences as U.S.A.
Sitting in my work at this moment I see about 75 people here, about half are white.

Our Media is very different, I get to watch both about half and half. The way a news story is handled is very different.

"America does tons of stuff for it's poor: Public housing, welfare, food stamps, "
maybe not enough....

Not to be insulting but have you seen the movie?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1177682 - 12/29/02 04:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)


Not to be insulting but have you seen the movie?


No, I have not. I probably should. While I don't agree with Micheal Moore's
politics, I can admit that he is often humorous.

RandalFlagg


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1177708 - 12/29/02 04:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I think it has more to do with the fact that there is a huge mix of different types
of people from different cultures and backgrounds in America. Differences
breed distrust and envy.



Thats just not the case though, look at the UK, Germany, Canada.. We have as much cultural diversity as the US, this is just a common mis-persception that people have.

Quote:

Aren't other countries like this too? Isn't their news often slanted towards the
eye-catching and the dramatic?



I can only speak for Canadian news, UK news, Spanish news, and a little of Germany newscasts. In those news there isn't nearly the type of American style news, yes sometimes they focus on a story, but nothing remotely close to the US way. Most news there is simply just that a news story, much like say watching the more mellow US news like 60 Minutes, or better ABC's Nightline. More relaxed serious news type stuff... Just watch BBC's newscasting, its truly excellent.

Quote:

When you give people the freedom to be selfish, they will act selfishly at times.



Are Canadians not free? British? German? Australians? Swedes? We all share freedom as a common theme, but our form of society is what is different. All other western countries have more concern for our indigent and have a safety net for their societies... Its the poor and desperate that are often the cause of much crime, so if you take better care of the poor and unemployed; doesn't it make sense that your crime rate would be lower?

Having a social net is what seperates the US from most countries, since the US prides itself on how its the land of oppertunity.. While this is true, it is also quite ruthless to those who don't succeed.

Did you know the wealth of the .1% of the US has gone up 150% in the last 30 years, while the wealth of the middle class has gone up 10%... In that 30 years housing costs have skyrocketed and the standard of living for the middle class is sadly going downhill. Sorry to be obvious, but the US model of wealth as an way of life is a pipe dream.. Only a few make it while the rest, the vast majority are struggling to make ends meet while the 'old money' continues to 'keep it in the family.'

Quote:

America does tons of stuff for it's poor: Public housing, welfare, food stamps,
medicaid, etc..



I'm sorry but they don't... In comparison to other western countries the American model is horrible. Around 50 million people living in poverty! In countries like Canada we have a support system that allows people to get back on their feet, in the US welfare is a trap that has been shown to give little hope of people getting out of it.

The US is just not caring for its indigent and sick. What about 50 million people not having healthcare?? Also do you think at least the US should guarantee free healthcare for children?? They can't even do that!

Health care should be a right that all free people enjoy, because while most people can afford to pay into a health care system, those who can't shouldn't be left out.

Don't get me started on how healthcare for profit also causes a lot of ethical problems with people's care coming second to the all mighty dollar.

Quote:

That is a stereotype.



It definately is, but to a degree it describes the 'feeling' of the country rather than an accurate description of all individuals.

The US attitude is "You're on your own, good luck." Canada and most other western countries say "We will help you if you fall."

I mean its not easy to judge something like this, I know it isn't that black and white. But the US societal attitude is certainly unique from most countries and maybe that is what needs to change for there to be less violence..

I mean your leader is a warmonger, the general outlook he gives the rest of the world is one of a bully. The US attitude seems to be lets bomb them instead of taking a hard look at the reasons for this terrorism..



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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
    #1177768 - 12/29/02 05:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I mean your leader is a warmonger, the general outlook he gives the rest of the world is one of a bully. The US attitude seems to be lets bomb them instead of taking a hard look at the reasons for this terrorism..


Exactly.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
    #1177813 - 12/29/02 05:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

It's clear that the problem is not with guns, but the attitude people have toward guns in America.

Ask an American why he has an assault rifle, and more often than not, he'll say it's to defend himself and his family from something like a burglar, or another sort of intruder.  Now break down all the nouns.  Why does he have gun?  "To defend from " or, "To defend from ."

You're left to ask yourself: "Why?  Where does that fear come from?" 

The only plausible answer I can come up with is the one that Michael Moore came up with:  The media.

"Violence in the media" does not mean to say "Violence as entertainment."  Violence in the news.  Cops.  America's Most Wanted. CNN, MSNBC, CNNBCBMSNBC, or whatever corporate orgy can you assemble.  When I flip on American news stations, I am guaranteed to see something about guns, war, death, or terror, within minutes.  When I flip on a Canadian news station, it usually involves something with the weather, projections for next seasons crops, Canadian political squabbling, or controversial changes in national law.  In fact, I'm going to do that right now.  I am turning on my TV.  I'll leave it without the sound on.

CNN: I just turned it on, and I am looking at planes firing many rounds, still shots of bombs, shots of bombs dropping, many rows of explosions, army men are talking, large planes are taking off, head-up displays of fighter jets, many rapidly changing shots of planes, bombs.  Aaron Brown is speaking now.  I've turned the sound on.  This is about a new fighter jet America has produced or acquired that is 'by far the world's best'. Now AOL commercials.

Now I'll flip to CTVNN.

CTV News Net:  There's been a house fire in Quebec.  A 10 year old and his younger sister died in the fire.  They don't know what started the fire.  Ha, now they're talking about gun control.  They're talking about how many of our citizens have failed to report their firearms to the federal government.  They are interviewing people at a shooting range about the new gun registration laws in Canada.  Lots of people are disatisfied.  Some people in BC are upset about finding miniature panda bear crackers that have swastikas on them.  Apparently they were from India, where the swastika represents the god of good luck.

Let's try CNNHN.

CNN Headline News: A senator says he plans to pass a law that will make military service mandatory for every American citizen.  An unknown bomber has killed many people in Chechnya.  They don't know who he is, but they do know he had "plenty of funding from Arab countries."  At the bottom of the screen, scrolling text says that North Korea is "defiant in the face of US inspectors."  Now they're talking about LOTR II.

I think I'll stop here.

People in fear do irrational things.  Michael Moore says that people in fear do 11,127 irrational things every year.  And that's the whole point of the film, if you ask me.

Michael Moore brings up the question; "If it can't be attributed to racial tension, historic violence, accessibility of guns, or Marilyn Manson, why is there so much gun violence in America?"  This is a perfectly valid question.  Moore brings up some explanations for it, and I agree with them.  You certainly don't have to agree with me, and you certainly don't have to agree with Michael Moore.  No one is holding a gun to your head. :smile:

The question is; the point is: "Why?" 


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OfflinePed
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1177829 - 12/29/02 05:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>> America does tons of stuff for it's poor: Public housing, welfare, food stamps, medicaid, etc..

A few weeks ago, in Michigan, a low-income apartment building suffered a mass-eviction of all it's tenants, under claims from the police department that the building was nothing but a hub for drug sales and prostitution. It turns out that the building was filled with disabled Vietnam war vets., and other such benign people. Their posessions were hauled away on trucks, and the residents are on the streets. Plans to turn the building into luxury lofts are already under way. I'm sorry, but posting a source for this article would do nothing but drum up arguments against it's credibility. Search around, I'm sure you'll find something about it. It happened in Detroit.


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