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OfflineShroomFrog
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Mutant spore color
    #11213004 - 10/09/09 04:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I've seen the red mutant spore producing mushrooms available and just read a thread that dealt with a spore mutant of PE producing brown spores.  I'm curious if anyone has performed liquid or paper chromatographic tests on any of these mutants.  Because this sounds like a defect in the pathway that produces a blue/purple color.  Thinking that spore color is at least two pathway dependent.  Mostly I'm curious concerning the blue/purple pathway, and if that color can be isolated, analyzed and compared to the proposed psilocybin oxidation product.

I know the thought that blue/purple being a psilocybin pathway end product might seem improbable due to the purple/black/brown-purple spores being very indicative of the stropharia family.  That being said and that not all members of the stropharia family produce psilocybin/psilocin.  But as I know so far, most psilocybin producers have dark spore prints.  This then brings up the possibility of multiple convergent evolutionary events, possible loss of function from  non-conserved genes in such a species like gymnopilus.

Any thoughts?


--------------------
Yes, that string of words I arranged together does make sense!

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Either you have morels or you don't  -Mycological humor


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Invisibleratdog
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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ShroomFrog]
    #11223787 - 10/11/09 12:33 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

some spores print purple blue that come from non active types. and they in turn do not stain blue. so i see no link.

i think active / bluing types with change in spore color are genetic mutations with no link to conservation of certain genetics but loss instead.

its this loss that shows in the color change of the spores and retention of all other traits. to link the pathways to each other based on color would result in other traits being effected too which is not evident. link more than 2 traits and those link to too many others. the organism would be too unstable.


sorry i had a drink or 2 so i hope i make sense.


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ratdog]
    #11224040 - 10/11/09 01:08 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I received brown PE prints b4, I traded them just because they weren't purple/darker.:shrug:


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ratdog]
    #11227440 - 10/11/09 05:48 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ratdog said:
some spores print purple blue that come from non active types. and they in turn do not stain blue. so i see no link.

i think active / bluing types with change in spore color are genetic mutations with no link to conservation of certain genetics but loss instead.

its this loss that shows in the color change of the spores and retention of all other traits. to link the pathways to each other based on color would result in other traits being effected too which is not evident. link more than 2 traits and those link to too many others. the organism would be too unstable.


sorry i had a drink or 2 so i hope i make sense.




I agree that there must be two seperate pathways which are not linked one for spore coluor and one for making drugs.

spore colour is genetic and with different pigment complexes arising due to mutation we get the range of colours, purple through to red.


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OfflineShroomFrog
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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: badman]
    #11230082 - 10/12/09 12:33 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ratdog said:
some spores print purple blue that come from non active types. and they in turn do not stain blue. so i see no link.




I mentioned this.  Also, not all mushrooms that have psilocybin stain blue either, so staining can't be a measure of or non linkage. 

Quote:

ratdog said:
i think active / bluing types with change in spore color are genetic mutations with no link to conservation of certain genetics but loss instead.




I also said this, but my sentence was poorly written, I can understand the misunderstanding.

Quote:

ratdog said:
its this loss that shows in the color change of the spores and retention of all other traits. to link the pathways to each other based on color would result in other traits being effected too which is not evident. link more than 2 traits and those link to too many others. the organism would be too unstable.




I'm not definitely linking them, just willing to discuss the probability. Also, all because there is a no change in macroscopic phenotype doesn't mean there isn't a change in genotype, as not all genotypes are expressed as an easily identifiable phenotype.  Testing is required to differentiate what you're proposing.  The genetics of an organism are not fixed, mutations regularly occur and the organisms still persist, though not always.

Quote:

badman said:
I agree that there must be two seperate pathways which are not linked one for spore coluor and one for making drugs.




Unless the specific use of psilocybin in the biochemistry of fungus has been determined, I don't think it as an intermediary for a pigment can be discounted.  That is at least without chromatography followed by Mass spectrometry or other testing performed.  For instance, Beta-carotene (carrot orange) is an anti-oxidant and is utilized in many metabolic processes in humans, but what is it's use in the carrot?  There are many pigments and flavanoids produced by other species that are metabolically active to humans.

Quote:

badman said:
spore colour is genetic and with different pigment complexes arising due to mutation we get the range of colours, purple through to red.




This is why I'm asking if anyone has performed any chromatography.  To begin to figure out if the change in pigmentation is due to a mutation altering protein activity resulting in a different color, or knock out in the pathway that leads to the change.


--------------------
Yes, that string of words I arranged together does make sense!

Some mushrooms you only eat once.

Either you have morels or you don't  -Mycological humor


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Invisibleratdog
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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ShroomFrog]
    #11231597 - 10/12/09 08:28 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomFrog said:
Quote:

ratdog said:
some spores print purple blue that come from non active types. and they in turn do not stain blue. so i see no link.




I mentioned this.  Also, not all mushrooms that have psilocybin stain blue either, so staining can't be a measure of or non linkage. 

Quote:

ratdog said:
i think active / bluing types with change in spore color are genetic mutations with no link to conservation of certain genetics but loss instead.




I also said this, but my sentence was poorly written, I can understand the misunderstanding.

Quote:

ratdog said:
its this loss that shows in the color change of the spores and retention of all other traits. to link the pathways to each other based on color would result in other traits being effected too which is not evident. link more than 2 traits and those link to too many others. the organism would be too unstable.




I'm not definitely linking them, just willing to discuss the probability. Also, all because there is a no change in macroscopic phenotype doesn't mean there isn't a change in genotype, as not all genotypes are expressed as an easily identifiable phenotype.  Testing is required to differentiate what you're proposing.  The genetics of an organism are not fixed, mutations regularly occur and the organisms still persist, though not always.

Quote:

badman said:
I agree that there must be two separate pathways which are not linked one for spore color and one for making drugs.




Unless the specific use of Psilocelium in the biochemistry of fungus has been determined, I don't think it as an intermediary for a pigment can be discounted.  That is at least without chromatography followed by Mass spectrometry or other testing performed.  For instance, Beta-carotene (carrot orange) is an anti-oxidant and is utilized in many metabolic processes in humans, but what is it's use in the carrot?  There are many pigments and flavanoids produced by other species that are metabolically active to humans.

Quote:

badman said:
spore color is genetic and with different pigment complexes arising due to mutation we get the range of colors, purple through to red.




This is why I'm asking if anyone has performed any chromatography.  To begin to figure out if the change in pigmentation is due to a mutation altering protein activity resulting in a different color, or knock out in the pathway that leads to the change.[/quote]


red...

what would Darwin say?  i wonder if like in carrots the red or in tomatoes or other life forms the color has something to do with a warning? i bet due to the propagation of many visual defense laden life forms resulting in the ease of identification might have changed from defense to a chareistic desired. all of this resulting in the further promotion of the life form. and this is the big one.... would not the spore color change be part of the evolution of new traits not effecting the mushrooms overall function be part of life searching for new forms of defense.

i think if there are pathways then the core paths " those that change the fundamental function of the mushroom" can not be linked to those that are effected by the environment.

the only link i can imagine is one of overall functionality were effective defensive traits allow the mushroom to survive and reproduce with the same mutations.and that any color change adapted will remain unlinked to its core function and intern be linked to the changes in its environment.


brown ............. i would say environmental knock out..LOL


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ratdog]
    #11232247 - 10/12/09 12:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Ive smoked a spliff in Darwin's gardens LOL, beautiful veiws, so peaceful up there.

Anyway, of course an intermediate pigment cant be discounted and also my assuption of the two pigment pathways not being linked is probably nieve on my part but with out evidence all we can do is hypothesise. Only reason for this assumption is that the bluing is thought to occur due to oxidation of drug compounds but again i dont think there is any hard evidence, prove me wrong/right and i will still thank you as i would like to know the real reason.

As for beta-carotene, plant cells will still have free rads inside their cells which will cause damage to bio mols, beta-c allows them to be mopped up due to its electron rich nature. Again a theory.

The red highlight above i think is a VERY good question and if anyone knows the answer or any possibilities please share with us.

The brown highlight my gut says change in protein sequence but this is on the assupmtion that there is a pigment complex (like chlorophyll) which gives colour. I dont know what gives the purple/red colour but i dont think it is a chemical such as beta-c.


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OfflineShroomFrog
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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: badman]
    #11243927 - 10/14/09 04:04 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badman said:
Ive smoked a spliff in Darwin's gardens LOL, beautiful veiws, so peaceful up there.

Anyway, of course an intermediate pigment cant be discounted and also my assuption of the two pigment pathways not being linked is probably nieve on my part but with out evidence all we can do is hypothesise. Only reason for this assumption is that the bluing is thought to occur due to oxidation of drug compounds but again i dont think there is any hard evidence, prove me wrong/right and i will still thank you as i would like to know the real reason.

As for beta-carotene, plant cells will still have free rads inside their cells which will cause damage to bio mols, beta-c allows them to be mopped up due to its electron rich nature. Again a theory.

The red highlight above i think is a VERY good question and if anyone knows the answer or any possibilities please share with us.

The brown highlight my gut says change in protein sequence but this is on the assupmtion that there is a pigment complex (like chlorophyll) which gives colour. I dont know what gives the purple/red colour but i dont think it is a chemical such as beta-c.




Unfortunately all we can do is hypothesize right now.  I have found that bouncing ideas around is good at shining light on flaws and expand the original hypothesis.  The question in red is the purpose I started this thread.  Perhaps as a start the Rh values from chromatography of ground spore and the blue extracted from bruised mushroom tissue could be compared.

Anyone have Silica chromatography plates and elution solvent to attempt this? or be willing to send me some.

Quote:

ratdog said:
what would Darwin say?  i wonder if like in carrots the red or in tomatoes or other life forms the color has something to do with a warning? i bet due to the propagation of many visual defense laden life forms resulting in the ease of identification might have changed from defense to a chareistic desired. all of this resulting in the further promotion of the life form. and this is the big one.... would not the spore color change be part of the evolution of new traits not effecting the mushrooms overall function be part of life searching for new forms of defense.




Usually a desired characteristic for one purpose develops into a defense through some sort of selection pressure either by mating or predation preference.  I can see how the bluing of damaged caps could be a visual defense by simulating rot.  Does anyone know the actual and not thought of predators of psilocybes?  If the proposed oxidation product is incorporated into spores, it could be a natural antibacterial or antifungal to allow the spores to survive till germination.  I figure this as either the spores will find a patty to start growing on or could get eaten with grass and pass through the animal.  But has to survive laying dormant on the grass till something comes along.


--------------------
Yes, that string of words I arranged together does make sense!

Some mushrooms you only eat once.

Either you have morels or you don't  -Mycological humor


Edited by ShroomFrog (10/14/09 08:43 PM)


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ShroomFrog]
    #11244640 - 10/14/09 10:40 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

:wink:

I read somewhere that redboy cube or CRS or PFRS cubes burised with a greenish tint.

I think silca plates can be bought but maybe a crude trial with blotter paper and high proof etOH or IPA. Other solvents may be hard to get, they are over here.


Edited by badman (10/15/09 10:56 AM)


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OfflineShroomFrog
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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: badman]
    #11248034 - 10/14/09 08:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Oops! I'll correct it.  Thank you for pointing that out.  :sorry:

Hmm, didn't think about using blotter paper.  I'm just to use to having lab supplies available.  My whole mushroom growing experience has been lessons in improvisation.  I'll try some chromatography out when the raw materials are ready.  Hopefully IPA or EtA will be able to make a good extract of the pigments.  I shouldn't have a problem, they are pretty good solvents.


--------------------
Yes, that string of words I arranged together does make sense!

Some mushrooms you only eat once.

Either you have morels or you don't  -Mycological humor


Edited by ShroomFrog (10/14/09 08:57 PM)


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ShroomFrog]
    #11248862 - 10/14/09 10:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

pics please too!!


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11248939 - 10/14/09 10:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
I received brown PE prints b4, I traded them just because they weren't purple/darker.:shrug:





PE6


I recently got a brown spored mushroom, seems the PE genetics are prone to it.


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #11248978 - 10/14/09 10:54 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

its the shroom saying please don't eat me i look different so maybe i am its your call. and its thinking maybe this color will get me laid instead of just eaten.

like makeup i guess ????


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ratdog]
    #11249015 - 10/14/09 11:00 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Or it could be like blue eyes vs brown eyes- really not a significant factor in evolutionary terms. Just a thing that happens.


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: Doc_T]
    #11250104 - 10/15/09 01:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
Or it could be like blue eyes vs brown eyes- really not a significant factor in evolutionary terms. Just a thing that happens.





ah but some guys like blue eyes and choose to mate with girls with only blue eyes.

i think.


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ratdog]
    #11251761 - 10/15/09 11:03 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Pan cyan australia also has a red spore trait, might be a spontainous mutation affecting purple/dark spored species :shrug: also i doubt that there is any disadvantage of the abnormal spore colour.

ratdog, you talking about 1940's Germany... LOL


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: ShroomFrog]
    #11252173 - 10/15/09 12:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomFrog said:
Unfortunately all we can do is hypothesize right now.





A spectrometer scan of PC spores...



-FF


--------------------
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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: fastfred]
    #11252299 - 10/15/09 01:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

ShroomFrog said:
Unfortunately all we can do is hypothesize right now.





A spectrometer scan of PC spores...



-FF



what was the apparent color of the spores in the scan?


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: badman]
    #11253104 - 10/15/09 03:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badman said:
Pan cyan australia also has a red spore trait, might be a spontainous mutation affecting purple/dark spored species :shrug: also i doubt that there is any disadvantage of the abnormal spore colour.

ratdog, you talking about 1940's Germany... LOL




True, the red spore color in the Pan cyans of Australia have popped up in the lab (first) and recently a wild red spored pan cyan was found.

Now if we could just find a species (active or not) with a blue spore print. I've always wanted a sky blue print for my collection.


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Re: Mutant spore color [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #11257339 - 10/16/09 02:19 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BlimeyGrimey said:

Now if we could just find a species (active or not) with a blue spore print. I've always wanted a sky blue print for my collection.




How about Heinemannomyces splendidissima, a mushroom with vivid blue spores.  The mushroom itself is blue but dries to buff.  Described in 1998 from South East Asia.


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