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InvisibleHerbal_Elixer
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Registered: 05/05/09
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11201815 - 10/07/09 04:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Also, the condensation on a surface says little about the RH of the air behind it. It just shows that the air closer to the surface was cooled reaching its dew point (100% RH), and condensing against the surface. So with temperature fluctuation (light coming on/off, room temp, day/night etc.,.) the condensation on the surface cannot be a useful gauge to the air in the chamber.

"As moisture-laden air gets close to the cold surface it starts to get cooled and so the relative humidity increases; the greater it is cooled the higher the relative humidity. Against the cold surface the temperature of the air now drops below the dew point temperature and liquid water drops out as condensation."



Only knowing for sure that all temps are equal, in, out, and on the surface can you start to conclude that the RH is high. This is not something that can be made universal for everyone's set up on here.. however a true hygrometer is.


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OfflinePoseidon
My FAE is bigger than your FAE


Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 229
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11201887 - 10/07/09 04:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn`t say condensation means high humidity at the present time, but it certainly indicates sustained high humidity in the chamber over a period, and is a good indicator of favorable conditions for your mushrooms.  If your FC has continuous condensation, it`s a pretty safe bet your RH is at least acceptable.

My face IS a hygrometer!  I knew it all along.


--------------------
HELLO, NUBCAKES.  ARE YOU HAVING CONTAMINATION ISSUES?  WELL, YOU MUST NOT BE AWARE OF THE MAGICAL FORCE OF BACTERIAL ENDOSPORES.  E-N-D-O-S-P-O-R-E-S.  SPELL IT OUT, YOU GOD DAMN NUBLETS, BECAUSE IT WHAT CAUSES EVERY CONTAMINATION KNOWN TO MAN.  ENDOSPORES HAPPEN WHEN YOU DO NOT PRESSURE COOK AT 15 PSI FOR AT LEAST 6 HOURS.  LIKE A FUCKING VIETCONG IN HIS CAVE, THESE RELENTLESS COCKSUCKSERS CAN GET FUCKING FRIED AND STILL POP OUT OF YOUR GRAIN AND FUCK ALL YOUR SHIT RIGHT UP!!  GETTING CONTAMINATIONS?  WELL OBVIOUSLY, YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ENDOSPORES!!

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Invisibleanonjon
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Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11201897 - 10/07/09 04:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Someone call Ryche Hawk and tell him he's a dummy who doesn't understand 5th grade science...

"A tip on humidity:
If you don't have a humidity gauge, one sure way my friend has found to determine humidity from looking at his gauges, is by judging the condensation on the walls of your grow chamber. For casings you want around 82%-92% humidity. If you see the walls of your grow chamber just sweating away with condensation and they're dripping constantly, then you more then likely have 100% humidity, this is fine for cakes but not casings.

To judge 82%-92% humidity you should only see light condensation on the walls with the occasional dripping. This is after some fresh air has been pumped into your chamber and you let it sit for an hour or two. "

-Ryche Hawk


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Invisible13shroomsM
Lightning Shaman
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Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 26,719
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11201911 - 10/07/09 04:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

:ashamed:


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:takingnotes:A M U:helpdesk:
Click here ^ for the AMU forum
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Invisiblecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11201917 - 10/07/09 05:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

more than likely, doesn't mean 100% of the time.....  :shrug:

just like saying use a shotgun chamber with 5" of perlite and more than likely you will have proper  RH%


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InvisibleHerbal_Elixer
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11201939 - 10/07/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

lol.. then he proceeds to tell you how to find a good hygrometer about 20 words later (wonder why).


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11201945 - 10/07/09 05:04 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

just like saying use a shotgun chamber with 5" of perlite and more than likely you will have proper  RH%





lets not take shots at shotgun tubs :tongue2:


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:takingnotes:A M U:helpdesk:
Click here ^ for the AMU forum
VVV AMUs Free Active/Edible/Exotic Spore Print or Syringe or Edible Culture Trade Thread VVV
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InvisiblePinback
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11205089 - 10/08/09 12:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Assume a vessel wall temperature of 20 °C. This means the saturation vapour pressure at the wall surface is 17.54 torr. Any air from the inside of the vessel having a higher vapour pressure, and cooling to the wall temperature, will cause condensation on the wall. If the vessel air temperature is 21 °C, the saturation vapour pressure is 18.65 torr. So if condensation forms in my example, it is known the vapour pressure is at least 17.54 torr, with a maximum of 18.65 torr. This means that the relative humidity is at least 17.54/18.65*100 = 94%.

Adjust the above with real temperatures. :smirk:

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OfflineDudester67
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Registered: 05/01/09
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11205820 - 10/08/09 05:10 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
For years and years before shotgun terrariums became popular, people used condensation as the best indication of high RH.



I'm one of those people who used perlite terrariums for years & years and no, we used hygrometers as the best indication of high RH.

And yes, what Ryche wrote is incorrect.

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OfflineIngrimus
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 240
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Thyrax]
    #11205836 - 10/08/09 05:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Thyrax said:
I remember RR Saying in this exact same word : Your face is not a valid Hygrometer, LOL




RR is NOT god.
*gets struck down by a napalm coated lightning bolt*
:onfire: ...Geez, I'm sorry, I'm sorry...
*sacrifices b+ sporeprint to his RR\Agar shrine*
seriously tho, RR CAN be wrong (I guess?), but yea, he's right on this(and pretty much everything else).
Your face < Hygrometer


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"Don't attempt to stifle his experimentation because you have a hardon for me." -RogerRabbit

LEARN TENACITY - HAVE PATIENCE.
WITHOUT IT - YOU WILL NOT SUCCEED AT THIS HOBBY.
-Agar

THIS SHIT IS MAGICAL TRIPSTALMETH STOP JUDGEMENTING ON MY HABITS

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OfflineIngrimus
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Registered: 07/31/09
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11205841 - 10/08/09 05:20 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
Quote:

just like saying use a shotgun chamber with 5" of perlite and more than likely you will have proper  RH%





lets not take shots at shotgun tubs :tongue2:




Can't you see they've been through enough? =(

Besides, it's sacreligious....they're very holey :wink:


--------------------
"Don't attempt to stifle his experimentation because you have a hardon for me." -RogerRabbit

LEARN TENACITY - HAVE PATIENCE.
WITHOUT IT - YOU WILL NOT SUCCEED AT THIS HOBBY.
-Agar

THIS SHIT IS MAGICAL TRIPSTALMETH STOP JUDGEMENTING ON MY HABITS

Edited by Ingrimus (10/08/09 05:21 AM)

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OfflineIngrimus
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Registered: 07/31/09
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Dudester67]
    #11205848 - 10/08/09 05:24 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

T-T-T-TRIPLE POST
Quote:

Dudester67 said:
Quote:

anonjon said:
For years and years before shotgun terrariums became popular, people used condensation as the best indication of high RH.



I'm one of those people who used perlite terrariums for years & years and no, we used hygrometers as the best indication of high RH.

And yes, what Ryche wrote is incorrect.




almost as if hygrometers were around long before the pftek and such......:rolleyes:


--------------------
"Don't attempt to stifle his experimentation because you have a hardon for me." -RogerRabbit

LEARN TENACITY - HAVE PATIENCE.
WITHOUT IT - YOU WILL NOT SUCCEED AT THIS HOBBY.
-Agar

THIS SHIT IS MAGICAL TRIPSTALMETH STOP JUDGEMENTING ON MY HABITS

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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Pinback]
    #11206219 - 10/08/09 07:42 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pinback said:
Assume a vessel wall temperature of 20 �C. This means the saturation vapour pressure at the wall surface is 17.54 torr. Any air from the inside of the vessel having a higher vapour pressure, and cooling to the wall temperature, will cause condensation on the wall. If the vessel air temperature is 21 �C, the saturation vapour pressure is 18.65 torr. So if condensation forms in my example, it is known the vapour pressure is at least 17.54 torr, with a maximum of 18.65 torr. This means that the relative humidity is at least 17.54/18.65*100 = 94%.

Adjust the above with real temperatures. :smirk:




:thumbup::thumbup:


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206419 - 10/08/09 08:47 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
You're right Roger, it is 5th grade science and I don't understand how you can continue to use the same inapplicable examples even after I thoroughly debunk them.

This is nothing like the condensation on a glass from the fridge.

1. The inside of the fridge is colder than the outside whereas in the terrarium the opposite is true.

2. The temperature differential in the terrarium's case is much smaller than the fridge.

3. You can observe the condensation without opening the terrarium. You aren't causing a sudden drastic temperature differential like you are by removing the beer from the fridge.

It just doesn't apply.




1. The inside of the fridge is colder than the outside whereas in the terrarium the opposite is true.
The beer from the fridge gets condensation on the warm side of the temp differential.  The beer is cold, the air touching the can is warm, thus condensation forms on the warm side of the differential, JUST LIKE in a terrarium where the condensation forms on the warm side.  It's the exact same principle.

2. The temperature differential in the terrarium's case is much smaller than the fridge. 
Correct.

3. You can observe the condensation without opening the terrarium. You aren't causing a sudden drastic temperature differential like you are by removing the beer from the fridge.
Speed of temp change is not a factor.  When air cools to the dewpoint, condensation will form whether or not it happened fast of slow.

This has gotten completely childish and ridiculous. If you want to argue, take it to OTD.  If you have a valid point to make that's founded in science, then make it with science to back up your claims.  A few others have chimed in to tell you how to determine dew point, how it's reached, and what happens when it is.  You're arguing the indefensible point that condensation on the walls is an indicator of high humidity in a terrarium, which it is not, regardless of who has made the same mistake before.  My terrariums are all sitting at 95% or greater, and not one of them has a single drop of condensation on the walls.  However, I can take a sealed-up rubbermaid, put perlite and substrates in it, and shortly after I turn on the light overhead, condensation will form on the sides.  Why? Temperature differential-It's warmer inside the terrarium than outside.

I strongly suggest any new growers to purchase a few analog hygrometers and calibrate them properly via the damp towel method weekly.  Furthermore, discussions like this one give the impression to new growers that humidity is the most important factor in growing mushrooms, which it isn't.
RR


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11206680 - 10/08/09 09:54 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

This has gotten completely childish and ridiculous.  If you have a valid point to make that's founded in science, then make it with science to back up your claims.




It's not childish. I did make a solid argument backed up by science. Please tell my how my original post was incorrect.

Quote:

A few others have chimed in to tell you how to determine dew point, how it's reached, and what happens when it is.  You're arguing the indefensible point that condensation on the walls is an indicator of high humidity in a terrarium, which it is not, regardless of who has made the same mistake before.




Other's have also chimed in explaining how I am correct, explaining the relationship between RH, condensation, and dewpoint. These are related concepts.

Quote:

My terrariums are all sitting at 95% or greater, and not one of them has a single drop of condensation on the walls.




Yes, I don't know how many times I have to concede this point to you. The absence of condensation is not an indicator of rh, period. You are absolutely correct.

Quote:


However, I can take a sealed-up rubbermaid, put perlite and substrates in it, and shortly after I turn on the light overhead, condensation will form on the sides.  Why? Temperature differential-It's warmer inside the terrarium than outside.




This is why Ryche Hawk recommends you check condensation when the fc has been under stable conditions. Yes, condensation is cause by a temperature differential. We are not arguing that point. But RH is also related to temperature changes over time.

Quote:


I strongly suggest any new growers to purchase a few analog hygrometers and calibrate them properly via the damp towel method weekly.




I concur. I have one. I am using your shotgun terrariums. Thank you for inventing it. It works very well. Pinning is much better than in the sealed terrariums I've used in the past.

Quote:

Furthermore, discussions like this one give the impression to new growers that humidity is the most important factor in growing mushrooms, which it isn't.




The only thing this thread does, is debate a single scientific phenomena in an abstract way. The best advice for any grower is to have a hygrometer. I think we have established that.

Quote:

If you want to argue, take it to OTD.




This is not an off-topic discussion. The advice on condensation observation is from The Shroomery tek section, from a very well known and established mycologist. It is directly related to cultivation.

The fact remains that when you walk into your grow area, and see condensation on the walls of your terrarium, it is because the air is reaching a saturation point where water is unable to evaporate. Or in other words there is a high relative humidity. Yes the condensation is caused by a temperature differential. But RH is directly related to temperature differentials, as I explain very thoroughly and scientifically in the very first post of this thread. Because the temperature differential and the air volume of the terrrarium are very small, it is very reasonable to assume that the entire volume of the terrarium has a high relative humidity.

Quote:

You're arguing the indefensible point that condensation on the walls is an indicator of high humidity in a terrarium, which it is not,




How is it your place to tell me that my position on a particular esoteric debate is indefensible. I am entitled to make my case, as you are entitled to make yours. We do not have to agree.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11206708 - 10/08/09 10:02 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Herbal_Elixer said:





This shows why you are both right.
The RH near the condensing surface approaches 100% humidity, yes.
But,
That's an asymptotic curve. Humidity a few millimeters from the surface can be much less, and it says nothing about the tub as a whole.


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InvisibleHerbal_Elixer
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206726 - 10/08/09 10:05 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

^Thanks.. that's why I showed that.. from a scientific stand point, it just cannot be a predictor of the whole situation, it is but one piece to be considered.

"The absence of condensation is not an indicator of rh, period. You are absolutely correct."

If anything, this statement right here.. to which we all agree.. is why we shouldn't be pushing this. You will have new growers over saturating and second guessing by reading this.. why? (which is also why I will stay on the side of that quote you took from Hawk being bad information, and again he only said it if you are absent of a hygrometer in a need to know now situation, then proceeds to tell you how to shop for one) If your trying to prove that condensation can mean high RH.. well yes, it is possible under certain circumstances.. but to proclaim that by using this method "makes your face a valid hygrometer" is incorrect.. again simply pointing to the above statement.

I hate to argue, and I am really trying not to.. but I just do not see the reasoning for pushing this.


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Doc_T]
    #11206741 - 10/08/09 10:08 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said: Humidity a few millimeters from the surface can be much less, and it says nothing about the tub as a whole.




The greater the temperature differential, the more this is true. With very small differentials, I would expect this gap to be much much larger than a few millimeters.


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Invisibleanonjon
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Posts: 6,322
Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11206767 - 10/08/09 10:12 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Herbal_Elixer said:
^Thanks.. that's why I showed that.. from a scientific stand point, it just cannot be a predictor of the whole situation, it is but one piece to be considered.

"The absence of condensation is not an indicator of rh, period. You are absolutely correct."

If anything, this statement right here.. to which we all agree.. is why we shouldn't be pushing this. You will have new growers over saturating and second guessing by reading this.. why? (which is also why I will stay on the side of that quote you took from Hawk being bad information, and again he only said it if you are absent of a hygrometer in a need to know now situation, then proceeds to tell you how to shop for one) If your trying to prove that condensation can mean high RH.. well yes, it is possible under certain circumstances.. but to proclaim that by using this method "makes your face a valid hygrometer" is incorrect.. again simply pointing to the above statement.

I hate to argue, and I am really trying not to.. but I just do not see the reasoning for pushing this.




I did concede these points that you make. I'm not pushing the face hygrometer method. I'm just debating a very specific point because I find it interesting.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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InvisibleInfea
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206775 - 10/08/09 10:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

:popcorn:  Wow, someone needs to take a physics class.  It's admirable to fight for something you believe in, but the information is out there; in physics text books.  Sometimes even I feel in my gut that condensation = high humidity, but as much as I love the Colbert Report, I'm not gonna sacrifice the truth for what I feel.  Your arguments have not been logical and your running on your gut feelings.  This is such an elementary concept... kinda gives shroomerites a bad impression of being totally  mindless and unable to comprehend a HS physics lesson.  Keep fighting the good fight, but be careful about coming of like an expert and leading noobs down the wrong path.


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